good old hand tools

dlilazteca · May 10, 2013

thanks all for your help..im going to save to buy a better system to last me a life time..but I would like to get going...i have read that a 120 degree is a good all around tip/point (not sure what the correct lingo is) to work with to mess around now...my question is where can i get this and use with a hammer to start to practice... in ohte words the old fashion way or is this just as expensive?

i tried doing a search but everyone has seemed to move to assited tools..can any one help...thank you

Sam · May 10, 2013

Check out the TOOL LIST FOR BEGINNERS sticky thread in the Tips Archive. I think you'll find what you're looking for there.

Andrew Biggs · May 10, 2013

Yes, a chasing hammer, handle and graver plus a work holding vise will get you started. Along with a sharpening stone.

However I wouldn't recommend a 120 graver because if you are sharpening by hand it will be a mission.

Start with an onglette or square V graver (90 degree) as both can be sharpened by hand.

I would highly recommend that you get The Art Of Engraving by Meeks or Engraving Historic Firearms by Shippers before you do anything else. These books show you how to hammer and chisel and give a wealth of information that you need to go in this direction. It would be money well spent.

Cheers
Andrew

JackJellies · May 10, 2013

As a total beginner (engraving 3 months) using only hand tools so far I also love a 90. Though I have also found the 105 from GRS really nice and pretty easy to sharpen by hand. Also, I strongly recommend the videos by Sam, especially drawing scrolls and engraving scrolls. Sample some of the clips on YouTube, but then when you have the bucks, buy what you can afford.

Have fun!

Marcus Hunt · May 10, 2013

C'mon Andrew, forget the onglette. It's totally unnecessary and very difficult to sharpen. To recommend one to a beginner engraver is like saying to a learner driver who has just passed their test "When you buy a car, make sure it has a starting handle."

Yes, onglettes do have a very specialised role, normally with stone setting, but for general engraving a square graver will do. In 35 years of engraving I can count the number of times I've used an onglette on one finger! I know a couple of engravers on the forum use them although I can't for the life of me think why. So please stop recommending them to novices as they'll find it incredibly difficult to get good results.

Andrew Biggs · May 10, 2013

Hi Marcus

An onglette is what I started on and didn't have any trouble sharpening it. With a bit of practice it seemed to cut just fine through the steel practice plates with hammer and chisel just fine.

At the end of the day it's just a tool with a pointy bit that cuts through metal and can be sharpened like anything else.

But it certainly wouldn't be my weapon of choice now

Cheers
Andrew

GTJC460 · May 11, 2013

Basically a spietzer and onglette are very much the same geometry. I use them quite often. They are strong points especially in wider widths. Relatively easy to sharpen too.

I kinda laugh at all the bustle over point geometry, especially when it comes to bulino work. Really??? A point is point. You can make dots and little lines with virtually any sharp point!

Same idea applies to normal line engraving. You can make the cuts using an infinite combination of geometries. In reality a beginner could buy one flat graver and one point graver and have everything they need to start working. All lines can be made with the flat. The only reason I suggest a point graver of some sort is to make life easier on cutting the finer lines.

dlilazteca · May 11, 2013

so what now..

Marcus Hunt said:
C'mon Andrew, forget the onglette. It's totally unnecessary and very difficult to sharpen. To recommend one to a beginner engraver is like saying to a learner driver who has just passed their test "When you buy a car, make sure it has a starting handle."

Yes, onglettes do have a very specialised role, normally with stone setting, but for general engraving a square graver will do. In 35 years of engraving I can count the number of times I've used an onglette on one finger! I know a couple of engravers on the forum use them although I can't for the life of me think why. So please stop recommending them to novices as they'll find it incredibly difficult to get good results.

so what do I get then..thanks

dlilazteca · May 11, 2013

ok I went to the tips for tools for beginners

here is the list posted

1. 2 square gravers blanks (which one?) here is the link when I ran a search there are severals can you guys point me to part numbers...this is all confusing

http://www.grstools.com/search.php?query=square+graver+blank&x=0&y=0&search=1&searchtype=products

2. 1 wooden or steel chisel handle

i did a search on grs.com and no clear answer...please help

3. 1 mushroom type hand engraver...same problem please help

4. medium and fine whetstone combo...nothing came up on the search on grs.com

5. chasing hammer (check no problem here)

thank you all again for taking your time to help out a total newbie...

once the list is done im sure this would help out all the newbies in the future,,i think a list with part numbers and or websites to buy the stuff would be good...please advice according to what really works not who you represent or work for thank you...

glstrcowboy · May 11, 2013

I am not too far ahead of you (a look at the work I have posted will prove that) and only using a chasing hammer. Here is what I have learned about tools. Trying to learn to make tools, draw scrolls, and cut poorly rendered scrolls with ill shaped homemade tools all at once is a recipie for disappointment. That is exactly why I gave up for a year and a half. Learn to make one simple tool well, then learn to use it. Buy a 1/8 inch square lathe bit from msc https://www.mscdirect.com/product/82603085 Using a bench grinder, carefully put a 45degree face on it, being sure not to overheat it. If you think you are quenching it too often, do it a little more. That will be often enough. Clean up the face and the flats on your ez lap 400/1200 grit lap (PN: DD8SF/M). A parallel heel is easier to make than a standard one, just swipe the tool a couple times along the whole flat. Put a very small radius on the point to strengthen the tool, then jam it in a piece of wood to deburr it. If it sticks in your fingernail, it is sharp. If it skates off, it is not. I use a piece of stainless 3.75 inches long with a .75 inch deep hole drilled in the end to press the tool into. Some hot glue works well to sure things up if you don't have access to precision drilling equipment. I wouldn't get too caught up in trying to cut your own artwork right away. Use circle templates and French curves to scribe out some lines to cut. That way you have a known good line to follow and can focus on just cutting skills. That's my advice, it is worth everything you paid for it.

glstrcowboy · May 11, 2013

Forgot to mention, the ss handle is .375 od available from McMaster Carr or SpeedyMetals.com

dlilazteca · May 11, 2013

that basically all i want to do now is circle templates and curves to build up my skills....but i do not have access to many equipment to make tools...im kind of stuck having to buy the tools pre made..

GTJC460 · May 11, 2013

You want the glensteel graver blanks. Go with the square version. A face is already preground which will save you a ton of time.

http://www.grstools.com/gravers-burs-and-more/glensteel/glensteel-gravers.html

Flat gravers. Go with a #40 or 42 and maybe a 38

http://www.grstools.com/gravers-burs-and-more/quick-change-gravers/quick-change-graver-flat.html

Graver handles for pushing. I like the set of three that are colored red, yellow and blue. Makes for quick id of what graver you are grabbing.

http://www.grstools.com/tool_handles/

Tool holders for hammer and chisel

http://www.grstools.com/chasing_hammers/044-220.html

Here is a sharpening stone.

http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Combination-India-Sharpening-Stone/113237?Pos=2

dlilazteca · May 11, 2013

GTJC460 said:
You want the glensteel graver blanks. Go with the square version. A face is already preground which will save you a ton of time.

http://www.grstools.com/gravers-burs-and-more/glensteel/glensteel-gravers.html

Flat gravers. Go with a #40 or 42 and maybe a 38

http://www.grstools.com/gravers-burs-and-more/quick-change-gravers/quick-change-graver-flat.html

Graver handles for pushing. I like the set of three that are colored red, yellow and blue. Makes for quick id of what graver you are grabbing.

http://www.grstools.com/tool_handles/

Tool holders for hammer and chisel

http://www.grstools.com/chasing_hammers/044-220.html

Here is a sharpening stone.

http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Combination-India-Sharpening-Stone/113237?Pos=2

you recommend the glen steel square...ok but it's square to both ends how would that fit in the grs qc chasing tool holder...

Andrew Biggs · May 11, 2013

Okay, I'm going to work on the assumption that you know absolutely nothing about what you are getting into........which is fine because we all started that way.

My best advise to you is to buy the book Engraving Historic Firearms by John Schippers at the FEGA web sitehttp://www.fega.com/prodserv/Books1.asp It's $129.95 + shipping.

This will give you a lot of answers and direction otherwise you will be utterly lost in terminology and tools. Once you purchase your initial tooling you then have to learn how to sharpen the gravers and use the tools properly otherwise you will be set for failure..........the Schippers book shows you how to do all of the above.

Unfortunately the only thing you can't buy is patience and goodness knows we would all like to purchase some more of that.

Cheers
Andrew

dlilazteca · May 12, 2013

the book is not in stock where can i find a copy...

Sam · May 12, 2013

If you buy the Glensteel blank that Bert suggested, you'll need a QC (QuickChange) tool holder to mount the graver in. I believe you can get them in packs of 3 on GRStools.com. Then the mounted graver will fit into the end of the steel chisel handle.

GTJC460 · May 12, 2013

I recommend you write down the product numbers mentioned in the links I posted. Then call the very fine people at GRS and tell them you are totally new to engraving and need help buying your tools. They will help guide you to exactly what you need.

The most important part of engraving is not making the cuts. It's proper sharpening and work holding! I'd put the bulk of my money into these two areas. That means ask GRS about their fixture for sharpening and ball vice.

GTJC460 · May 12, 2013

Also get some nice soft copper practice plates to start with. It's alot easier cutting this soft metal then a harder metal.

diandwill · May 12, 2013

You haven't said where you are located. While the thought of engraving is alluring, the expense is not. My first recommendation would be to take a class/ some lessons. Finding a better engraver is easier if they know where you are, and the expense of a class is negligable when compared to the value. You may discover that you really DON"T want to engrave, and if you still want to, you have started without learning any bad habits.

The second thing I recommend is buying the books/dvds/tapes recommended and buying a sharpening template. Lindsay has a fairly inexpensive way to get consistent results...the same face angle and heel angle in a sharp tool, and repeated every time you sharpen. Sharpening by hand is great, but I would bet money that it will frustrate you with inconsistent results. That, in turn, will make it less enjoyable to engrave.

Just my $2000.00 advice! (two cents with inflation and engraving experience)

good old hand tools

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