Back inside the window

[Bunic]

A number of folks didn't like my layout that went behind the border, or the not-so-straight lines.

So I recut it. Please tell me what you think..

 

[pilkguns]

looks to me that you are still stretching that window.....

 

[pilkguns]

Why don't YOU try drawing just the spines and tell us what YOU think......

 

[pilkguns]

and if YOU can't see what is hugely wrong with this, then there is no sense in wasting our time, or Sam's band width with further questions.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Mike

I'll be a bit kinder than Scott

First I'd like to say that you have made a good attempt. It's fair to say that overall it's not very good..............but that's OK as all of us have been there and done that. None of our first attempts were any good.

There is the usual deformed scrolls with bends and kinks in them and the cutting is not good. But time and practice will cure a lot of that. Hopefully.

About borders......................

Borders are there to define/frame the work. They are also there for a purpose................and that is to set the boundaries for your scrolls, leaves, scenes etc. They are not there for the sheer hell of it. What this means is that you have to bring your scroll work up to, and touching, the borders. The same applies to leaf work. Do not leave big unsightly gaps with leaves and scrolls just banged on at random. Make them fit and touch the borders....and if they don't fit...........draw it again and keep drawing till they do fit!!!

I've attached a picture for you to look at so you get the idea. Hopefully it will graphically illustrate my point.

But I'll also comment on a few other things that you may, or may not, want to hear.

1. From what I have seen of your drawings that are non related to engraving...........you have a talent for drawing, that is plain to see. But you are struggling with the concepts as it applies to engraving. I think in your rush to become a Master Engraver in two years, which is an admirable goal............it is also highly unrealistic and it is making you rush things that you really need to take your time on. I'm beginning to get a sense of panic about all this and it's showing in your work...................step back and relax a bit and take the pressure off yourself.

2. Find another teacher. I'm not criticizing the one that you have...........but sometimes a different perspective on layout and design from another source can be of immense value. I would highly recommend a class like GRS, Sam, Ray Cover or any number of schools/classes out there. They can also observe your cutting technique and advise any corrections. It would be money well spent for you!!!

3. Buy the book by Douglas Tate "British Gun Engraving". It's available through GRS or other outlets. Make it your bible on good gun engraving (I believe that is where you want to end up). Learn to develop the eye of what is good engraving..........and what is not very good engraving. There is a big difference between the two and as a beginner you will confuse the two. Do not think that just because someone can cut metal better than you that their work is any good. Learn to discern what is good engraving. If you learn only that lesson it will give you a solid foundation to work from..............this may cause you to re-evaluate some of your current thinking which is, and should be, a natural progression forward.

4. Learn to draw one good scroll and cut it. If you can do that, then you can draw two good scrolls and join them together and cut them. Right now you are drawing one beginners scroll with all its mistakes (which is fair enough because you are a beginner) and then some really bad ones joining onto it.............everything is connected. All the scrolls have to look good and all the leaves have to as well.

5. Scott is right.............you are at the stage now where you should be seeing some of the mistakes in your designs. Not all, but some..........things like wonky scrolls are self evident and even if you can't necessarily draw them or cut them perfectley...........you should be able to see and self critique them. If you can do that.............then you can start correcting them without being told to.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[pilkguns]

Yip, yip, YIP! what Andrew said.

actually there is one area I would differ on. I have British Gun Engraving, and never was that impressed with it . I guess I should go look at it again. * Personally I think the bible for scrollwork is Roger Bleile's American Engravers. There is such a diversity of scrollwork there, both in terms of design and in skill levels of the performers that pagee after page you can make comparisons of what you like, what you don't , what is rightly done and what is not. The black adn white format also somehow makes the scrolls seem larger than life too. Historically as well, its a great reference with many of our own forum poster's work shown at an early stage, and of course, work like Lynton's that was at that time setting a new design standard that is widely copied today, and will for years to come no doubt.

* I am sure different books come into people's lives at different stages, BGE for Andrew may have hit him at the point in his learning curve that what was in it become an "Aha moment" in his scroll knowledge. And it's possible that even now, Andrew may not have seen or have a copy of Roger's book, given its harder to acquire status, but I can assure anyone seriously interested in this art, that the $150-$200 prices it fetches on the used book sites these days is worth every penny for your scroll education.

 

[Glenn]

Mike,
Do not give up on coming to this forum for help. Andrew is a wonderful source of information.
Even those who think they are great were lousy once. Don't give up. Remember there is a lot of room on top. Only the bottom is crowded. Keep a strong heart and practice like hell is on your tail.
There are many people on this forum who will willingly help you.
By all means try to take some classes!!

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

trying to give you some help

Mike, yes Andrew is right in my point of view.
One thing I want to pint on is that your goal “master within two years” wont work.

My goal was making a nice design and being able to execute it within one year, and I did.
So in my honest opinion, “you lay you bar to high”. That because if you are able to reach that goal, even then it is best not to mention it.
I understand it is part of your ambition, but there are no “Master Engravers” who were granted with that title within two years. (sure I could be wrong)

Another good lesson is that everything one is chasing at, he never will reach, things you don’t chase at but work on, then come.

In October, I will reach the clip of two years learning to make a design and engrave it.
I’m amazed how far I already came with only the help of this forum only.
I suggest you read my most important tread where I learned it all “design for my pocket knife”
Every help that was offered, I have used it and made a good design and it is still on my pocket knife I use everyday and remember that.

So sure there are a lot people who are willing to help you truing to reach your goal, so do I, but if I told you in a previous tread, that the sequence making an engraving is:
Backbone, leaves, background, shading, you did not do anything with this advise.
So that is quite frustrating to the ones that try to help you.

Install Skype and I will be willing to talk to you one on one


arnaud

 

[Christopher Malouf]

I remember that thread Arnaud. That's where things really started to come together for you.

Andrew helped me a great deal as there were a whole bunch of things I read and remembered but couldn't tie them together until things were explained to me in a different way.

Mike,

Don't mind Scott, he's really a pretty good guy ... I remember when I first joined the forum and we disagreed on the suggested reading list. I see no use for coffee table books unless you already have some idea of what you are looking at. Not all of them are filled with work that represent outstanding study examples anyway. Besides, if you're not gonna wear out the pages of "how to" books like the one by Meek .... then there's no use in suggesting books at all.

There are those who believe you can not do it. Heck, I was voted least likely to succeed in Lee Griffith's basic engraving class. Use that negative energy to push yourself to defy the odds.

Take care,

Chris

 

[Kevin P.]

Mike maybe you're too old for this; I'm an old guy too so I'm allowed.

Again what confounds me is that drawing of yours that you posted very early. If you can do that, how is it that you can’t see what’s ‘bad’ about this design.

Scott is right and he doesn’t seem to be into ‘coddling; maybe tough love but I shouldn’t speak for Scott.

Andrew is very generous and perhaps his style would be more helpful. But for your part you have to show that you’re attending to what Andrew says.
Andrew, principally, there were others, led Arnaud on an amazing tutorial in engraving scrolls. I followed Arnaud’s adventure and Arnaud worked very hard to show Andrew and John B and some others that he was very serious.

Check it out in the tutorials. If you don’t show evidence of learning . . . .!

What perplexes me if you could do that first drawing you must have an ‘eye’ and yet it doesn’t show in what you post. I’m not good at this, but the fact that you can’t see what’s not good about this design is surprising.

And if my words would discourage you from pursuing your engraving maybe it’s just not for you?

Have you thought of trying another style of engraving? Such as no scrolls do something else to gain some confidence and do it larger.

I would be the first to say that one cannot learn hand work via the internet; it must be one on one ‘live’.
But then how can that ‘freak’ Arnaud be accounted for. As the French might say maybe he’s a ‘monstre’.

Kevin P.

 

[dave gibson]

Man, I don't know if I'm sending any more pictures around this camp, these boys play rough.

 

[pilkguns]

Dave, don't be afraid to post we are gentle with most folks.

If you follow Mike's various critique requests over the last few months, you will see a lot of good advice from myself, Marcus, Arnuad, Marty, John B, Andrew and others. Look at this this thread for example
http://igraver.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7326
where I took a lot of time to draw it out and make it more visual to better understand what was being said.

However, if you follow the threads chronologically, I think you will see some increasing frustrations with Mike's mistakes and his not following the advice we all have been graciously trying to give. I think we all think he is capable of succeeding, given his artistic talent, but when he keeps asking advice for the same design mistakes in complicated patterns over and over again, when we have'nt seen any effort to learn the basics... then sometime you have to be a little a blunt.

Arnuad, that is an interesting thread you had about the knife. Somehow I misssed it. I'm sorry I did'nt get to participate. Sometimes I go weeks without getting in the forums, knowing i can;;t take time away from ongoing projects that pay... or are supposed to anyway....

 

[Chapi]

I have to re-enforce what Arnaud said about his pocket knife design thread. It was a huge leap forward, with the super huge advantage that Arnaud was the one getting critiqued, so you don't have to take anything personally, which is always severe to those who have been artists their whole life. This is a whole different animal than realistic art. This is design and it has geometric, mathematical rules to be followed. I wish I could remember where Scott posted his ten commandments of scrolls- I had a lot of "aha" moments there(more than ten). I will agree with Arnaud that chasing your timeline might be jamming you up, but I do think it is still possible to learn what you need to learn within two years, but it will be tough-maybe the hardest thing you've ever taught yourself to do. I am not sure how long Jetta (Jeff) has been engraving but he has accomplished some amazing things in a very short time. He also has taken some classes from Jason and he spent untold hours working at it. Take some time to cut up a bunch of practice plates. I was told I needed a shoebox full of old plates before I even thought of my first "real" piece, and whoever told me that was right. It takes practice, but it will come to you.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Woah, hold up a minute Dave! There is no playing rough and everyone is welcome to post and ask for critique if they want it. So please don't take this thread the wrong way. Sometimes things have to get real and if Mike is setting himself up to be a "Master in 2 years" he's got to be prepared for some home truths.

Mike, unfortunately I have to agree 100% with Scott. Andrew has taken a much more diplomatic line. My take on this is a) the enthusiasm is great but the reality of making a Master in 2 years from the results I've seen so far just isn't going to happen. So forget the "Master" tag and get on with learning to engrave properly. b) Several very experienced engravers have take a lot of time to criticise your work and give you guidance but it seems like you totally ignore what you're told and advised and are content to carry on in your own sweet way. That's fine but sooner or later said experienced engravers are going to get hacked off with not being listened to and seeing the same old basic mistakes cropping up time after time. Now, unless some miracle happens (and chances are it won't) you won't wake up one day and be a Master engraver. As every master here knows learning anything costs, it could be financial but more than anything it's time. This means hundreds of hours doing the same things not jumping from one thing to the next.

I advised you to start with learning basic English scrolls and to get that under your belt. You'll learn design, rhythm and correct cutting and balance but have you ever bothered to take that retrograde step and keep on until you get it right? No, you seem to think that you can jump in at the deep end and produce the scrolls that experienced engravers do. Wake up and smell the coffee, sunshine, it ain't gonna happen!

This design is not good. The first one was totally out of bounds and this one has the backs of the scrolls running into the border line, others just over lap another scroll and then you have no idea where the spine should continue from and there's a scroll growing in the wrong direction. If you'd bothered to follow Scott's design advice this wouldn't happen. You can draw (as we've seen) so these fundamental mistakes shouldn't be happening.

The graver control isn't there yet either. I'll say it one last time - learn the basics. Stop following your own "Home School Program" and get some proper, full time classes under your belt. And yes, it will cost you money and time. This is the best advice I can give you. You can keep kidding yourself that you're making progress but in reality you're not! Sorry to sound unkind, but we can't keep giving you advice and encouragement when it just ain't there. And yes, unfortunately I'm one of the engravers who is starting to get hacked off with you because it feels like I'm banging my head against a wall! :beat up: But like every other bit of advice I've given you no doubt you'll carry on your own sweet way. Good luck.

 

[jlseymour]

I said something on the other forum that Mike should go to a school for a few days or week where you are not next to someone you can visit after class...
You have been given some great advise for free, so take advantage...
Jerry

 

[Andrew Biggs]

OK, I've got my moderators hat on for this one. Is there something in the water at the moment or the planets aligned the wrong way.???

This is not a dumping ground for frustrated engravers. By all means, if someone asks for critique .........then give it. But could we please refrain from slamming someone and dumping on them........especially in such a public way. It's not pretty to watch or read and it's humiliating for the person being dumped on.

If you have something to say, then by all means say it................but could you please try to use a bit of diplomacy and grace about it. It costs nothing and oils the wheels of good conversation.

Think before you type and remember the old saying............"treat others as you would like to be treated"

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Andrew, my post is not a "dump" or a "frustration", if it comes across that way I sincerely apologise. But it is meant to be a bit of a reality check. If someone want's a critique and then doesn't want to accept or act on any proffered advice it will get to a stage where it will become "Why bother?"

Far from wanting this to happen, I'm saying that Mike should honestly reassess where he's at and his goal. Aim to be a FEGA Master Engraver by all means but don't give yourself an unrealistic 2 years. Enjoy the journey, take some full time lessons from a professional engraver and learn to put what you learn into practice and get good at each particular aspect before moving on to the next (and notice I said "good" not "great" or "perfect").

And you know what? It's better that someone says something at this stage than for Mike to flounder around for another 6 months. Far from putting him down, I want Mike to get the fire in his belly, take the classes, keep practicing and prove to us that he can become a Master Engraver even if it takes 5 years or 10 or 15. But let's be honest, unless something radical happens 2 years is totally unrealistic and why give yourself such a target anyway?

Once again, if your feelings have been hurt by this I apologise, but imagine 20 years of showing your Master your work, work that you believe to be the best you are capable of at the time (and is more than just acceptable to the customer), and being told "If you just changed this, or did that this way, you'll make it so much better, " then you'll know what painful critique is. You choke back the tears, stand tall, learn from the criticism and put what you've learned into practice. You'll also remember with pure joy the day he looks deeply at your work, says nothing, nods and just says "That's good!" Then you'll finally know you've arrived.

As artists we are sensitive souls and harsh words can hurt but sometimes they are for the good and nothing more. And remember you are never such a good engraver that you know it all or can't learn something new.

 

[diandwill]

I hope that someday I will be able to qualify as a FEGA Master engraver, but until that day, I am trying to make a living doing jewelry engraving, making belt buckles and bracelets, engraving earrings, in a variety of styles, and getting by as a journeyman (self anointed, but every one that sees my work agrees that it is exceptional [for what it is]).

I don't have a shoe box of practice plates, but I have a dozen belt buckles, 100 pairs of earrings, 1/2 dozen knives and 2 dozen bracelets that I have made and engraved, to show clientele what they can have, so they will order custom engraving. I pass out my cards at every chance I get.

I hope that someday I will have the luxury of applying for a FEGA master engraver cert, but for now, I try to improve in all aspects, and sell what I can do. I am also a Goldsmith, but nothing like Mr Miller or Jaffe, but agaim I do my best, and try to improve with every piece.

Don't set unrealistic goals, but try to excell at every endeavor, and before you know it, you'll be competent and can progress from there. First become a journeyman, then become a Master. It is an established progression that doesn't really allow skipped steps.

Will

 

[Gemsetterchris]

Here you go Mike.
Take one scroll and have a good look at it.
Can you see a few things that need fixing? i can see several & i`m at a lesser stage than you and my drawing sucks :big grin:

I would concentrate on fixing this one to perfection & then add one more to it until they work together.
Drawing a nice scroll is one thing & cutting it as good is another problem to solve after

 

[KCSteve]

You know, having followed all of the threads (this one and the others mentioned) I think that Gemsetterchris has a good summary in his post.

And Marcus's suggestion to work on English scroll fits right in.

Mike, give this a try, at least for a day or two:
1) Practice doing just one English style scroll. It's a clean, uncomplicated design where the negative space is just as important as the positive.

2) When you can get one clean, crisp, clear scroll then take a plate and do your best to cover it with properly laid out English Scroll. You'll probably fail - I know when I've tried it I always seem to go off pattern somewhere but eh - that's why it's practice. But this plate isn't about perfection of the overall pattern. It's about repeating that one perfect scroll while also working on the pattern - mostly the idea of how scrolls flow off of one another.

3) When you can fill an area with English Scroll you should also be able to lay out a plate with nicely formed and flowed spines for other scroll styles. The practice of cutting the English scroll plate should have improved your curves and just generally made everything better.

Once you've got this down you can work on your leaves. I still tend to get ones that the ever-indulgent wife says look like dolphins.

Marcus, as soon as your English Scroll package comes out I'm going to be doing this. Right now I try but I'm stuck at some sort of mental block on way the cuts form the spaces between the leaves rather than the leaves themselves. I know I can do it, I just have to get the one last little piece to 'click' first and I'm sure that all I need is a little bit of instruction to do that.

Might have to try just doing the spines though - that I can do.