Critique of others engravings?

[Glenn]

I would like to open for discussion "critique of others engraving work".
I know this is a sticky subject, but I find myself caught in a dilema when I look at others engraving work.
I know my work leaves much to be desired. I there for do not compare my work to that of others if I can help it.
When looking at noteable engravers work in the Double Gun Journal and other publications it just does not look that great to me.
I feel guilty being critcal of these famous engravers work, but I can't help it.
Does being a "C" grade engraver give me a right to be critical of others work?
Todays engravers seem to me to be way above the old timers.
American engravers seem to now be among the worlds best.
I would like to read some comments from members of this forum on this subject.
Don't shoot the messenger.
Thanks, Glenn

 

[Sam]

Hi Glenn. Critique is a good thing, and there's certainly nothing wrong with pointing out your likes or dislikes of the work you see in magazines. Just because something graces the elite pages of Double Gun Journal doesn't mean it's first-rate engraving.

No need to feel guilty of being critical. I'm not a painter or furniture maker, but I think I know good work when I see it, and I see nothing wrong with stating what's good or bad in a polite way.

Many forum members will invite critique of work they post. I'm a member of few photography forums, and while on one forum every photo posted gets praise, on the hardcore pro forums they're frank and brutally honest, but never impolite. This, of course, helps make better photographers.

Long live critique / ~Sam

 

[Glenn]

Thanks Sam. A good and positive way to look at critique. This is something that has troubled me for some time so this forum is a perfect place to get great discussion about a sticky subject. I am looking forward to other opinions.
I'm sure that other engravers have questioned why some engravings draw so much praise when they look to be mediocre.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

We all critique work done by others every day. Either consciously or sub-consciously. It’s easy to find fault in anything if you look hard enough.

Critiquing someone else’s work should be done with extreme caution and diplomacy. If the person asks for critique then fine, go ahead. If they are merely showing their work then that’s another story altogether. Critique can easily become offensive, especially when it’s not asked for. Thinking something and saying it out loud are two different things unless you know the company you’re in extremely well.

We often base our critique on our own personal likes and dislikes or by our own standards or level of skill (or lack of it). “One mans junk is another mans treasure†is an expression that comes to mind.

A good friend of mine brought a painting by a well known up and coming New Zealand artist. He proudly showed it to us one night and the only word that came to my mind was “crapâ€. There was no way in the world I was going to say that out loud because my friend liked it and that’s all that mattered. Besides, who was I to judge the work?

A lot of things come into the equation. What was the customers brief to the engraver? What was the budget? What was the time frame? What do you base the critique on…Your own personal tastes? The technical skill involved? The design? At what personal level of experience do we have the right to judge others work publicly?

One of the big problems in judging other peoples work is that we often have no idea of what went on behind the scenes.

Over the years, in my day job I have produced some work that has made me cringe, but the customer got exactly what they wanted and paid for. It can be frustrating knowing that you can do a lot better but the customer’s wishes have to be adhered to.

Critiquing can be enormously helpful to beginners but so can praise. Getting the mix right can determine weather or not the beginner will be spurred on to do better or feel rejected and discouraged and give up after a while. Egos can be very fragile. Some of us can have thicker skins than others.

Critique yes……………but with extreme caution. Sometimes just keeping quiet can be the better way to go. Un-called for advice, no matter how well meaning, can cause offence.

Well, that’s my 2 cents worth and I’m sure others will feel differently.


Cheers
Andrew Biggs

 

[Ray Cover]

Andrew,

I think you hit on a lot of good points there.

Two that I think are the most dangerous in a critique situation are personal taste and what I lovingly call "pansy egos" or "delicate skin".

As for the first, personal taste, it is ill advised to argue personal taste. We all have our own personal taste which tends to drive and develop our own artistic style. The development of this personal style is what leads collectors to one artist's style while other collectors may be drawn to another artist's style. Personal taste is way to subjective to provide ANY value in a critique.

For example, one guy likes to play with metal inlays and do all kinds of tricks with inlay, another guy thinks this is gaudy and prefers work with no inlay. This is a personal taste issue and has absolutely no releveance on the "quality" of the work or the artist skill. Only each individual's likes and dislikes.

As for the second, pansy egos, that is a personality condition I think a lot of us need to grow out of. It is my belief (note I have no data to back this up. Its just my personal observation) that our society has become so overly concerned with self esteem and political correctness that lot of us have softened to the point that we get offended at the drop of a hat. As matter of fact I have seen people get offended for not being praised let alone some one making a constructive criticism of their work.

For some reason in our society we tend to personalize criticism no matter how constuctive it is. If someone makes a criticism of our work, there is a tendancy to internalize that and re-interpret it as a criticism of us personally.
(i.e. someone says there is something wrong with our work and some people read that as there is something wrong with us.)

If you wish to grow and develop in any feild you must overcome this. I am not saying everyone has this issue but enough folks do to start some real fires on forums.

By all means if you ask for a critique be prepared to be blasted. Hopefully, no one will be too brutal but be willing to take it if you ask.

Now for the positive end of critique.

I don't care how sucessful or experienced you are you can gain knowledge, help and improvement from critique.

For example, months ago I was working on an involved detailed project. About two weeks in I was beat. I was putting in extra work trying to get my school set up, was burning way too much midnight oil and fatigue set in. I was having a hard time seeing the piece objectively. I looked at the piece and I could see something was off but I had lost my objectivity and could not put my finger on it.

I posted it on Steve's forum, explained the situation and ask for help. Several people offered advice but J.C. nailed me. Those of you who know JC know he does not beat around the bush about anything and he gave me a list.
Blunt, straight at me, but honest. I got to looking at the work with his list in mind. I did not agree with all of his observations (partly due to the difference between holding the actual work vs viewing a pic on the web) but he helped me regain an objective eye with which to look at the piece. I adjusted, corrected and ended up being very happy with the work....so was the customer.

I will be the first to say that it would have felt a little better if JC had not been so blunt and laid it all out on the table. I had to swallow my pride and that never feels good. But no matter how blunt JC is I know I can count on him to be honest. If he said it, he really believed it. He is not going to stroke my ego just to make me feel good.

If I had let myslef get offended and taken the attitude that JC was wrong and didn't know what he was talking about I would not have made any changes and the work would have been sent out without being the best I could make it. The customer would have probably still have been happy with it but I never would have.

Be willing to take whatever folks say about your work and consider it. Even if it is wrong advise be willing to consider it and look at your work objectively.

When giving advise make sure it is advise based on objective observation and not personal taste.

Ray

 

[jdveritas]

on ego's

interesting subject, its all about that golden rule... Virtue is the mean of a thing... you can be too humble and you can be too vain.... your golden when you can look at yourself see the multitud of faults, and yet be pleased with your success..... I think that the problem our friend Ray mentioned about society is due to the fact that we have walked away from Aristotles good sence, and allowed ourselves as a whole to exist without taking the time to study the truth of a thing in its entirity. You can never be too honest with your self.

A few minutes ago I asked someone what they thaught about a project I'm working on and she said the left eye is higher than the right..... I immediately thought it cant be, I'm working off of a transfer.... and then realized that I had just lied to my self.... I had even with the use of the scope allowed myself to walk a hair higher on one eye than the other and sure enough I'm not perfect.... go figure...... well I fixed it and by bitting my tongue, I made her feel good for helping and produced a better work of art....

The big worry is, that we have as a large group walked away from virtue ethics, they dont teach this phylosiphy in schools very much anymore... now a days its ethics of care and macavillian scheams.... many people dont know what good is, much less understand why not to blast your opposition in a compettitor friendly environment. Jim

 

[Sam]

Ray, Jim, Glenn, Andrew and others all make valid points.

If someone asks for critique, then the person should be prepared for fair and honest critique.
If someone doesn't ask for critique, then assume they are not interested in receiving any.
As for egos, we all have them and it usually feels much better to hear compliments rather than criticism. The ego can be a driving force that motivates us to improve, but unchecked, it can be terribly ugly.

 

[Otto Carter]

There is no "I" in ego. But there should be.

 

[Crazy Horse]

Critique This:

OK gentlemen, I've read all the replys. All very good and informative. Being a novice (hacker) I just completed another of my German Silver money clips. Yes, I know that I have to burnish out a couple of scratches and do a little more polishing.
Material is .050 thick. Depth of relief is .013. Elipse is 1 1/2 X 1 1/4 ID. I use push gravers. Can't quite get used to my Gravermeister.

I'd like some professional advice. (I know, don't quit my day job. I won't.) I realize that in order to improve criticism and advice from real engravers is necessary. So please point out my mistakes (of which I'm sure there are many).

J.T.

 

[jimzim75]

Critique

Hi Crazy Horse,
Looks like to me, you did a good job of engraving. I can't find any fault
with it. Lay out on the other hand. Part of the standard scroll is covered
by the frame around the duck. This is more personal taste than any fault.
I would have raised the entire engraving slightly. I'm for clean seperation
in design ideas. Of course I could be wound a little to tightly.
Jim

 

[pilkguns]

OK, here are some of my thoughts.

First impression is that it looks very good. Even more so at the size we are are seeing at on the screen compared to the much smaller actual size. Pixel peeping we call it in the digital camera world.

Upon looking at it deeper, here is some more specific comments. Duck first. Head and bill all first rate. Back wing also looks fine. Facing wing and body IMO do not accurately depict duck anatomy. But I suppose that’s a discussion beyond engraving technique.

The scroll on the top is hard to say for sure, for two reasons, one it is all bit blurry and more so the scroll than the duck, and also the curvature has made the lighting much more un-even so its hard be sure if what I am seeing is an artifact of the photograph or the actual engraving work. But what I think I see, I will comment on. Overall the rotundity of the scroll is fine, and all leaves are flowing the proper direction, with the exception of the those on the bottom left flowing out of the border. AND this could be a correct exception, trying to balance the right side that has the leaves in the proper flow, with a mirror image of the same shape and size on the left, creating a half “cartoucheâ€￾ of sorts. What I don’t like is it appears (again the picture is not clear) that some of leaves around the outside of the backbone are coming into that line, and ruining the clear defination of where that back bone is. Maybe it would have been better to cut that outline scroll a little deeper initally, or it probably can be gone back over now and give a clear concise outline of where this scroll stops and starts. Another issue is the interior leaves. It appears that most of them have sharp points on their tips, while the one on the right just coming out of the shadow is definitely much more rounded than most of the rest. Rounded or sharp either on is acceptable, as long as it is consistent throughout the pattern. Even mixed is acceptable if you do consistent sequence, one sharp, one round or two rounds then a sharp or whatever. It just should be consistent throughout the pattern and in this case it appears (again I am not positive due to the photo itself) that there is only the one round leaf.

But all this stuff is engravers stuff, a 99% of paying customers out there would never see any of this.

Best regards
Scott

 

[Sam]

My first impression was similar to Scott's...that this is very good. The modeling of the scene seems to be done quite well, and this isn't the easiest type of engraving to do. I find myself admiring the way you handled the duck's feet, too.

The photo is not evenly illuminated at the top, and there's a dark reflection near the scroll which makes it difficult to evaluate. Instead of perching a scroll on top of the oval, I probably would have made the scroll 'grow' from the oval. This is a matter of personal preference, of course. If I were to do the same scroll as you, I might move the tail of the scroll to the 8 o'clock position instead of 6 o'clock. Again, just a suggestion and a matter of preference.

I'm not sure, but the scroll seems to have been polished after cutting. The final polish should be done beforehand, and only slight deburring done after you've cut your scrollwork. Polishing can spoil the sharpness and crispness of engraving, so be very careful.

You've done very well on this piece. Congrats. / Sam

 

[Crazy Horse]

First, I thank you for your advice and insight. Sorry for the delay in response, but I was out Quail and Pheasant hunting.
I'm not an artist but rather a machinist who has been working as a low level beauracrat bothering companies wishing to manufacture jet fighter engine parts for the Navy for the past 15 years.

I took a photo of a duck and reduced it. I then traced it to the material and began relieving the background. My greatest problem was when I got creative and decided to put in the reeds. I created a veritable nightmare as I didn't know how to make it look realistic. Somehow it worked out. (Just don't look real close.) I tried to make the scene look stormy or dismal, like most of my more productive duck hunting days, thus the clouds, wind bent reeds and what I hoped would look like rough water.

I know that my scroll work is bad. I tend not to copy anyone elses scrolls but I will have to in the future as I'm no artist. I know that most of you experts can see and feel those scrolls in your minds eye. i can't. I can see and feel three dimensiona things like the duck much better than scrolls. So I capitolize on what my mind sees. (Does that make sense?)

Thanks once again. I have a Quail in flight in my vice now. I'll try to employ your collective advice on this piece. When completed I'll put it up on line for your review.

Thank You much.

 

[Crazy Horse]

First, I thank you for your advice and insight. Sorry for the delay in response, but I was out Quail and Pheasant hunting.
I'm not an artist but rather a machinist who has been working as a low level beauracrat bothering companies wishing to manufacture jet fighter engine parts for the Navy for the past 15 years.

I took a photo of a duck and reduced it on a coping machine. I then traced it to the material and began relieving the background. My greatest problem was when I got creative and decided to put in the reeds. I created a veritable nightmare as I didn't know how to make it look realistic. Somehow it worked out. (Just don't look real close.) I tried to make the scene look stormy or dismal, like most of my more productive duck hunting days; thus the clouds, wind bent reeds and what I hoped would look like rough water.

I know that my scroll work is bad. I tend not to copy anyone elses scrolls but I will have to in the future as I'm no artist. I know that most of you experts can see and feel those scrolls in your minds eye. i can't. I can see and feel three dimensiona things like the duck much better than scrolls. So I capitolize on what my mind sees. (Does that make any sense to you?)

Thanks once again. I have a Quail in flight in my vice now. I'll try to employ your collective advice on this piece. When completed I'll put it up on line for your review.

Thank You much.

J.T.