Question: Do engravers jump into gun engraving too quickly?

[Sam]

I'll be the first to admit that I did. I couldn't wait to engrave a gun, and my first efforts were very poor, although customers were happy with them.

Looking at Bram Ramon's recent post of the beautiful drawings and careful thought and design process done BEFORE engraving inspired me to ask the question if newbie engravers take the leap too quickly.

There are 2 schools of though I guess. One being "hey, it's my gun and I'm going to engrave it and I don't care if anyone likes it." And another being "Dang, you just turned a $1000 gun into a $200 gun with poor engraving."

I advise my students to take it slowly until they can enhance a guns value as opposed to devaluing them. What do you guys think?

 

[GTJC460]

I think too many start cutting on guns way too soon. I didn't start thinking about touching a gun with a graver for a very long time. I had many ideas I played with on paper, the computer, and of course on practice plates. I easily thought about the design and played with for at least a year until I was really happy with the practice engravings and design.

Furthermore, it wasn't till I developed enough graver control and confidence that I really got serious about touching a gun.

I don't want to sound like a snob, but I think practice on junk material is the way to go. When people started telling overwhelmingly to engrave real objects is when I started thinking seriously about doing real work.

 

[mitch]

the short answer: yes. (and some days i feel i'm still not ready yet.) the longer answer: but how long should one wait until they try it? like you, Sam, i cringe at the memory of some of my earliest works that fairly scream that i was not yet ready to engrave anything of inherent value, but the motivation to cut something other than a practice plate was a big part of what kept my interest up. also, when we starting out 30-some-odd years ago, there weren't nearly so many nice little 'apprentice' project pieces available, such as Al Mar & Spyderco knives, etc.

 

[thughes]

Sam, I've been pecking away at it for two or three years or so, finally got my shop put together a year or so ago where I could get more serious about this stuff, and I've still not considered cutting a gun. I still don't feel like I'm to the level where I will make a gun more valuable. But that's just me.

Todd

 

[silverchip]

Since you asked, this is a related topic with what I deal with all the time.The fact that engraving is just one of many talents I must possess in my work doesn't make me a gun engraver or a silversmith ect., just an engraver perhaps.
I often run into young craftsmen-artists that are just staring out. Many with just a few months of experience,some a year think that just because their mother or close friends say "hey,that's pretty good",they hang out a shingle and "TADA" they are what ever they say they are.
This is unfortunate,but we live in the"land of the free"and you have that "right" to pursue what ever makes you "happy".
Learning a skill to do a given task is a never ending pursuit. The higher the skill level, the more complete a task becomes and the better it is done. Sure,I wish to see everyone that wants to,pursue their dreams,and I will root for them as well as help with whatever I can too.
After 35+ years of doing my"thing", I do care that the next generation can carry on with the proper skill and artistry that is required to call themselves "Gun Engraver,Silversmith,Bit and Spur Maker,Jeweler, Knifemaker,Politician,whatever,and be able to back it up.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[rayf24]

I just posted this under Bram's School Drawing project maybe a better place here to ask ?

WHY it’s that curtain types of engraving i.e. European / Italian / Belgium / French and English of coarse just OOOOOZE style , design , class, elegance, culture , superiority, intricacy , refinement , splendor , grace not to mention skill and talent of the Artist / engraver that is often lacking in other parts of the world, This isn’t to say that there are some very skilled artists elsewhere in the world but so often we see a design that looks a bit like some Japanese’s vine weed being fobbed off as good design and people will rave about it yet Bram has shown just how much work goes into creating a very elegant and balanced design so is it less is more or the more you put the more one can charge
What are your thoughts on this?
Ray

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

There are 2 schools of though I guess. One being "hey, it's my gun and I'm going to engrave it and I don't care if anyone likes it." And another being "Dang, you just turned a $1000 gun into a $200 gun with poor engraving."

I see that happening often. It's easy to wow the uneducated and it tends to cause many to start in too early. It reminds me of a book I read years ago about the Zen of Archery. The Zen master had his student practice drawing the bow for two years before letting him have an arrow. The student had developed the actual skill by first developing the mind and body. When given an arrow, the student was able to will it into the center of the target in the dark without being able to see it.

I think the same applies to anything that requires great skill. When you know you can do it... you are ready.

 

[wowilson]

Being fresh out of GRS' Basic firearms engraving school, I had three or four people wanting me to work on their guns and I had to turn them all down. I know that I am not ready yet, but I am working towards that day when I am. I will say however, that I saw a Mossberg double at the gun store the other day with factory "engraving" and I was appalled. It was awful, and the store had it out on the counter like it was really something to see. I asked the owner I he would like me to go over what was already on the gun and make it look presentable, and he said he didn't see anything wrong with it. That encounter made me wonder why bad factory engraving would make a gun "nicer" while bad hand engraving would ruin a gun. I guess it all comes down to what you want your name to stand for. I only want to be known for quality in everything that I do, so as a personal choice I am waiting (but it is tempting)

 

[Sam]

the short answer: yes. (and some days i feel i'm still not ready yet.) the longer answer: but how long should one wait until they try it? like you, Sam, i cringe at the memory of some of my earliest works that fairly scream that i was not yet ready to engrave anything of inherent value, but the motivation to cut something other than a practice plate was a big part of what kept my interest up. also, when we starting out 30-some-odd years ago, there weren't nearly so many nice little 'apprentice' project pieces available, such as Al Mar & Spyderco knives, etc.

I don't have an answer as to how long one should wait. Obviously there is no definitive answer to that question as it depends on the skill of the individual.

Back when I started I found some cheap brass bolster knives with bone handles that were made in Pakistan. They were about $2 ea and I cut a barrel full of them. Engraving on a "real" object, even though a super cheap one, made me concentrate more and made me even more determined to do my best as opposed to a practice plate.

 

[Marrinan]

Sam,
I think that your comment goes far beyond gun engraving. I see the same issues in all venues of the trade. Sometimes individuals jump into marketing work that is really practice. The example I would mention is lettering. One of your specialties is your beautiful leaf script. I believe there is a tendency of many to cut the sample S with your excellent written and video guide once or twice then jump in and start offering it as a service. Some go so far as to cut the entire alphabet but others likely cut one or two letters and become leaf script designers and engravers. The most popular thread on this form was on engravers script. nearly 5000 reads. I wonder how many actually tried to cut along with the lessons then practice until they would be skilled enough to market their skills in an area where they are not the only game in town.

There has been a lot of interest in Marcus Hunt's upcoming release of instruction on English Scroll. This is not an instant gratification art form. Reading his book, watching the video a few times, studying the casting under the scope for a few minuets and cutting a couple of practice plates will likely release a whole bunch of folks offering English Scroll in their commercial skill set. In a posting from long ago Marcus mentioned how long it took before Ken did not find problems with every single piece presented for evaluation. As I recall in was a very special day.

What is called bulino is another area I see this same tendency. Pic a few dots, cut a few correct fine lines and your in. I have cut countless areas of practice plates trying to get the gradient of light to dark consistently. A long way to go. I can think of a popular engraver (often referred to as a master) who gave fine line a try and posted a copy of a woman from a famous painting with lots of flowing scarf and dress. He requested guidance and critic on the work. Many areas were praised some problem areas were discussed and much guidance was given. An interesting and useful thread. Line direction was stressed. That practice plate is used on his website a a sample of his professional capability at this time? If I recall that thread was over on the knifenetwork.com Fine embellishment section where many of us long time forum junkies started. I can recall others who were artists with other media and really shined at the scene part of engraving. I several of the early works bulino/fine line work was truly remarkable. Their scroll left much to be desired early on.

The are many examples of folks jumping in with limited skill sets and a little success and think that there is a living to be made while the practice. This is a tuff way to earn and in this economy it is even tougher. Sorry for the rant. Fred

 

[glstrcowboy]

As a newbie I know I am not ready to cut nice guns. I got tired of practice plates though, and bought a couple pawnshop single shot shotguns to practice on. Nice flat sides, plenty of real estate, and no inherent value. Like I have seen so many people here say, you don't know what you don't know. Cutting those guns taught me that there is not always a place to rest your hand for support, fixturing is as much an art as drawing, screw holes can't be moved and must be considered in the design....etc. I can't see how something that keeps your interest up and provides a learning experience is bad. Perhaps the real question is: at what point can you call yourself an engraver? Or maybe: When should you start taking on worK? One of life's unanswerable questions perhaps.

 

[JJ Roberts]

Sam,I glad you started this discussion,your right the new people are in a big rush to engrave guns,knifes,jewery and anything else that they get there hands on.I started with James Meek's book,a few hand gravers,two chisels and a machinist vise.I worked a practice plates for two years and then with a little convenience I went to gun shows and purchased gun parts and thats all I would work on for another year.I would have never thought of engaving if I did'nt have a background in art,it would have been nice to study with some one in Germany,Italy,Belgium or England,but that was'nt going to happen with a wife and three small childern I did get some help from Roy Vail and advice from James Meek through phone calls.Our fellow engravers in Europe and the UK go out of there way to learn and are true artisans there apprenticeship is long and hard,here in America its instant gratification.Im seeing some really bad work being done on both forums. J.J.

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

I'm seeing some really bad work being done on both forums.

:banana::banana: :bow:

 

[SamW]

Yes, most jump in too soon, myself included. My earliest attempts remain locked away where they properly belong. I practiced about 6 years before taking in my first customer piece and another 7 years before going full time. There are those who become very proficient quickly and then there are us slow ones. There really is no answer to the question of "when will I be ready", Just buy a large enough vault to hold those you want to hide.

 

[Willem Parel]

.Im seeing some really bad work being done on both forums. J.J.

Wouldn't it be fair to say so when all you experienced Pro engravers reckognize and see work like this on this forum.
Most of the time it's " keep up the good work" but I think the one who's engraving it is, is much more helped with honest critique and advise.
I think only Marcus Hunt does from time to time and then he has to choose his words often very careful to avoid getting trouble.

 

[mitch]

...only Marcus Hunt does from time to time and then he has to choose his words often very careful to avoid getting trouble.

Marcus is in a foreign country and doesn't have to worry about someone throwing a brick thru his window in the dark of night.

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

Wouldn't it be fair to say so when all you experienced Pro engravers reckognize and see work like this on this forum.
Most of the time it's " keep up the good work" but I think the one who's engraving it is, is much more helped with honest critique and advise.
I think only Marcus Hunt does from time to time and then he has to choose his words often very careful to avoid getting trouble.

Unless a persons asks for comments and critique, the forum rules are not to give them. And, yes... there are way too many of the "keep up the good work" comments when honest critiques would be much more helpful.

 

[Willem Parel]

@ Mitch..Hahaha, I don't mean there isn't any critique sound or given good advise sometimes when needed but I think it's very good to speak openly, to comment poor work when it is poor.
The person who engraved it might be dissapointed (but not insulted !) but he/she can learn from any honest given answer.
And I think also that's up to the Pro's, I noticed myself many times when I thought "Ohhh Ahhh what a nice engraving" that after some things where pointed out I saw the flaw's I didn't reckognize before.

 

[Willem Parel]

Unless a persons asks for comments and critique, the forum rules are not to give them.

Okay, I have to admit we have to respect that.

 

[Sam]

I agree in part, Willem, but the way we have done it is to allow the person who did the engraving to invite critique. This is done out of courtesy to him/her. I see the same things you see and praising bad work is not doing the person who did it any favors. There doesn't seem to be a perfect answer as to how honest forum critique should be handled.