Announcement: English scroll for your help...^^

bram ramon

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Apr 27, 2009
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Liege Belgique
Thread starter #1
So I searched a bit in the course i had last year about the English scroll.. The picture batist uploaded came out the same course but i dont have it but can still find i ask the teachers.
Anyway i uploaded some pics to help you with the basics..
Some British engraves don't like the Belgium way of engraving english scroll.. But the way i learned it with this heavy cut's gives the english scroll more dept and character than the "real'" English scroll. But again every engraver engraves english scroll differently..
But there are rules and some very very important ones. Also at Leon Mignon we start with this style engraving it is a very good base for other ornamental styles..


Here you se how a scroll must be shaped the space for the "leafs" is the same!! The scroll at the right side is the correct one. Also when drawing ornamental drawing try to use this type of scroll design this way your leafs wont go from huge to small ... Which is disgusting and lumpish.. But unfortunately i see this mistake everywhere this gives the elegance!!!


Rule number two. you never want to see a big scroll starting at a small scroll!!! And the scroll start most be fluently!! Left scroll design is the right one.



Here we se a step by step how the leafs are cutted. This is personal. Me Personally prefer the big cut under the leaf to be longer more "leaf" style so the leaf are longer and not that short. But if engraved correctly is is super to!



Here you see how the scroll is formed and the leaf are engraved and how you have the small leafs at the outside of the scroll the may not touch the scroll!!



Here you see 3 styles of small leafs which we engrave at the outside of the scroll. From simple to more complex



Also very important to give depth character to english scroll is to shade the first leaf and ball. So the start of of your scroll goes from dark to light.



Shading the outside of the scroll is also important it connects the small leafs with the scroll this also gives more depth. If you shade the outside of a scroll it will come out. (Important for this drawing the leafs are engraved incorrectly!! the big cut under the leaf is wrong)

Here some pictures of 3 drawings these drawings i have drawn and engraved last years. I don't have the plates with me but i'll try to upload some pict of my plates later this year.. sorry for the bad quality



Here you see my first english scroll drawing notice the white spacing this has to be perfect.



Here an other of my drawings an other style also verry small english scroll max 4mm diameter no small leafs at the outside of the scroll. But we have bouquet of flowers..




Here a more free style english scroll drawing i made last year..

English scroll and how to make it looks elegant!!: some will say this isn't real english scroll but it is looking elegant and much nicer a good study piece engraved by the Belgium master Jean Marie Martens



Master Engravers who master the English scroll perfectly and where you can find pics of their engravings here on the forum ore on the net; Jean Marie Martens, Pascal Jacoby, Alain Lovenberg, Wiston Churchill

In the future i hope to make a video of how to engrave english scroll it is quit simple but there are some small tricks. I use a simple 90 degree burin and a onglet push graver

Me personally i'm not a fan of english scroll, and PLEASE i don't want to be rude but don't start asking stupid questions.. Yes they do exist... Search and do it yourself thats the hard way but thats the way you will make it!!
 
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sam

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#7
Thank you Bram. I've added this to the tips archive. I'm normally not a big fan of fine English scroll either, but the example in the last photo is fantastic.
 

JJ Roberts

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#8
English Scrolls

Bram,Thanks for sharing with us on your technique on English scrolls,I'll be sharing this with my students. :thumbsup: J.J.
 

dave gibson

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Aug 18, 2009
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Livermore,CA
#9
Fantastic tutorial, great engraving, great information. You've just multiplied my knowledge of English scroll, which I've never even attempted but will soon. Along with everyone else, thank you. This is the kind of stuff I like to reference over and over till I feel comfortable with it.
 

Marcus Hunt

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The Oxfordshire Cotswolds, England
#10
Okay, I don't want to start a row but the "continental" version of English scroll is a mile away from the actual English/ British version. "I don't like," or "I don't care for English scroll" is something I often hear spouted but when it's done properly there is nothing not to like as its a true design classic. Believe me, when I see a lot of stuff passed of as English scroll I also find it incredibly boring and don't care for it but when it's done well it's beautiful. If you want an example of gorgeous English scroll done by an American look no further than Winston Churchill.

In brief, the continental version is a) often cut by hammer and chisel which gives very different results, b) is incredibly repetitive, c) has outside work incorrectly formed and d) is often unshaded. All this adds up to an incredibly boring design which is just used as coverage.

True English scroll has subtle variations within the scrolls going on. It is very understated and conservative design wise and when done correctly is timeless in its beauty. Very often, if you look into it in detail, it isn't perfect either but its the imperfections that often make it work as its designed to be looked at as an overall pattern not with a magnifying glass. The crux is, "when its done correctly" and unfortunately there are only a handful of people left who have the knowledge to produce proper English fine scroll. It has become incredibly debased over the years because of the lack of apprenticeships which is sad.

Martens photo shows a very nice, beautifully cut version but its still not "traditional" English scroll as such. It is very cleanly cut and has a nice design element but the inside work is all the same with no variation and no shading. The outside work is also very nice ( some of the best continental work I've seen) but its too big. It should be a reflection, size wise, of the inside work.

The crucial thing for anyone wanting to learn this style is the ability to observe. Look at these pictures and compare them to the photos I posted elsewhere. I'm not saying mine is better or worse, forget that, but look and see if you can recognise the subtleties between the English and European interpretation of the style.
 
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Tim Wells

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Dallas, Georgia
#11
Here's the original photo.

Per Marcus' valid post, it would be interesting to see a tutorial on proper English scroll done by someone steeped in that tradition like Marcus, Simon, or someone else across the pond so that we may compare the differences and subtleties if one of these guys were willing to take this small task on. It would be a good time to do it.

I've seen a lot of versions I liked and a lot more that I didn't but I think it was more a design aspect rather than execution of the scroll itself. If I've missed a previous tutorial that Marcus or another Englishman may have posted already then forgive me, not trying put anyone on the spot and make more work for them.
 

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Marcus Hunt

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#12
Okay, I don't have time to do a tutorial right now but take a look at these photos and compare and contrast.

The first is a Henry Atkin circa 1930's that came in to have it's oval engraved. It is a great example of commercially produced English fine rose and scroll. These guys had no magnification and held the action in a peg against the bench and hand pushed so they had no modern assistances. It is in no way perfect engraving but it is full of character and life and bear in mind it's had over 80 years of wear and tear.

Next up is a modern Italian Abbiatico & Salvinelli. I'm sorry but to me the engraving is scratchy, dull and lifeless. This is NOT a good example of continental English scroll but it IS what's out there and what people see when they see and judge English scroll. No wonder people say they don't care for it, neither do I!!!

Finally, a knife that I did a few years ago. It's in the white so it looks fresh unlike the Atkin. I have the advantage of magnification and a decent vice over my 1930's counterpart but he probably completed his job in a fraction of the time than I take to do a gun. I hope you can see the variation of tendril, leaf, tendril on the inside work. It doesn't form a regular pattern. By this I mean if tendril = T and leaf = L it might go: T,T,L,T,L,L,T,L or T,L,T,L,T,T,L. It's what keeps it interesting. If the eye sees regularity everywhere it quickly becomes bored as there are no differences to draw the attention. This is a major point regarding English Fine scroll and is the biggest difference between English and Continental engravers and their interpretations of this style.





 

bram ramon

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Liege Belgique
Thread starter #13
Thanks Tim for posting this pic! I love it how Babtiste put his name/logo on the drawing. It comes strait out of the same course i have at school (leon mignon)... He didn't draw it the same with his "Batiste inlay point" Thats the way we learned it to sharpen (also he) at Leon Mignon for more than hundred years... Hilarious nothing more nothing less..

@ Marcus
You are right! Thank you for participating! Maybe we better call it the Belgium way of engraving the "english" scroll^^ Anyway there are clients who like more our way because we have that deep cutting "H&C way which gives blacker cuts) and because the leafs stay the same ore call it repetitive. Anyway it's a question of taste!

Have a nice day everyone!
 
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mitch

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#14
imho, the main difference in the better American versions from the more traditional English & Continental types of fine scroll is that it usually has more complex layouts & shading. while still pretty small, it's kind of a hybrid between the European styles and larger scroll styles. the Euro-versions almost never have the scrolls interwoven, which makes for a more 2-dimensional look. the American style, as practiced by myself, Winston Churchill, et. al., has more depth & interest. below is a shot of my own interpretation (I apologize for the quality- it's a photo of a photo.):
 

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sam

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#15
Marcus: I agree that the scroll on the Italian shotgun is poor. In fact, IMHO it spoils a nice gun.

Your scroll on the knife is excellent.

I should experiment with fine English scroll. I've engraved my share of small scrolls, but not using the same sequence of cuts, and now I'm feeling the urge to experiment with it! :)
 

Christian DeCamillis

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Nov 9, 2006
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637
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Traverse City, Michigan
#16
Marcus,

I agree totally about the A and S but I am pretty sure that is laser engraved, with some hand finishing. Or it's rolled. But I agree with you about all you say about English scroll. Your input and your fathers made a huge difference in my English scroll. It's the little nuances that make a big difference.

Chris
 

KCSteve

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Jun 19, 2007
Messages
2,889
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Kansas City, MO
#17
As some of you know, I work at a Cabela's and the other day our photographer for the Gun Library was showing me a beautiful old shotgun covered in fine English. Those scrolls were no more than 2 or 3mm in diameter and yes, with good light looking close I could see little 'things' here and there but the overall impression is just gorgeous. And this gun had to be from at least the 1930's, if not older.

We've been getting some very interesting things going through lately, including a muzzleloading Purdey shotgun from right during their transition in the late 1800's. The serial number on this one is actually one of a short sequence of 'missing' guns (really just ones they're missing the records on). click here to see it.
 
Joined
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Messages
58
#18
So I searched a bit in the course i had last year about the English scroll.. The picture batist uploaded came out the same course but i dont have it but can still find i ask the teachers.
Anyway i uploaded some pics to help you with the basics..
Some British engraves don't like the Belgium way of engraving english scroll.. But the way i learned it with this heavy cut's gives the english scroll more dept and character than the "real'" English scroll. But again every engraver engraves english scroll differently..
But there are rules and some very very important ones. Also at Leon Mignon we start with this style engraving it is a very good base for other ornamental styles..


Here you se how a scroll must be shaped the space for the "leafs" is the same!! The scroll at the right side is the correct one. Also when drawing ornamental drawing try to use this type of scroll design this way your leafs wont go from huge to small ... Which is disgusting and lumpish.. But unfortunately i see this mistake everywhere this gives the elegance!!!


Rule number two. you never want to see a big scroll starting at a small scroll!!! And the scroll start most be fluently!! Left scroll design is the right one.



Here we se a step by step how the leafs are cutted. This is personal. Me Personally prefer the big cut under the leaf to be longer more "leaf" style so the leaf are longer and not that short. But if engraved correctly is is super to!



Here you see how the scroll is formed and the leaf are engraved and how you have the small leafs at the outside of the scroll the may not touch the scroll!!



Here you see 3 styles of small leafs which we engrave at the outside of the scroll. From simple to more complex



Also very important to give depth character to english scroll is to shade the first leaf and ball. So the start of of your scroll goes from dark to light.



Shading the outside of the scroll is also important it connects the small leafs with the scroll this also gives more depth. If you shade the outside of a scroll it will come out. (Important for this drawing the leafs are engraved incorrectly!! the big cut under the leaf is wrong)

Here some pictures of 3 drawings these drawings i have drawn and engraved last years. I don't have the plates with me but i'll try to upload some pict of my plates later this year.. sorry for the bad quality



Here you see my first english scroll drawing notice the white spacing this has to be perfect.



Here an other of my drawings an other style also verry small english scroll max 4mm diameter no small leafs at the outside of the scroll. But we have bouquet of flowers..




Here a more free style english scroll drawing i made last year..

English scroll and how to make it looks elegant!!: some will say this isn't real english scroll but it is looking elegant and much nicer a good study piece engraved by the Belgium master Jean Marie Martens



Master Engravers who master the English scroll perfectly and where you can find pics of their engravings here on the forum ore on the net; Jean Marie Martens, Pascal Jacoby, Alain Lovenberg, Wiston Churchill

In the future i hope to make a video of how to engrave english scroll it is quit simple but there are some small tricks. I use a simple 90 degree burin and a onglet push graver

Me personally i'm not a fan of english scroll, and PLEASE i don't want to be rude but don't start asking stupid questions.. Yes they do exist... Search and do it yourself thats the hard way but thats the way you will make it!!
Bram I've come back to this post multiple times now for reference but it would be so much more helpful if your photos or pictures were available. I thi k over time they have dissapeered so I can only imagine what your talking about within English scroll. Any chance you'd refresh this post again with the illustrations? It's very hard to find much I formation on cutting English scroll on either forums. And I also can not find or get a hold of Marcus hunts dvds or books which is a damn shame. Thank you in advance if your able to re-upload or update this post! I'd greatly appreciate it.
 

RFS

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
9
#19
I have the same problem as ClarkandAddison, i.e., pictures from the original post are not appearing.
 

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