FAKE Nimschke

santos

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#4
Roger I know you are a true expert , do you think photo etching was already used around 1888 ? I've seen some factory marks that seem photo etched on old Merwin Hulbert revolvers but I'm not really sure it was etching . For this colt the pannel look really etched the roll markig on the barrel seem much deeper...just curious about your thoughs.

Thank You

Jean
 

FANCYGUN

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#5
Well guys...heres my take on this. Definately not Louis D. Scroll style is all wrong in layout and details. It also looks like the metal may not have been prepped prior to engraving as it looks frosted in places yet the scroll is shines bright
And yes i know Jim Lowe for many years and he does some fine restoration work and a first class jeweler to boot. I do think his quote might be edited and taken out of context in this auction
CYA in a few days in Vegas safe travels
 

Roger Bleile

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#6
Roger I know you are a true expert , do you think photo etching was already used around 1888 ? I've seen some factory marks that seem photo etched on old Merwin Hulbert revolvers but I'm not really sure it was etching . For this colt the pannel look really etched the roll markig on the barrel seem much deeper...just curious about your thoughs.

Thank You

Jean
Jean,
Acid etching was used to decorate guns, even in the earliest times. Just as armor was decorated by etching, some people used it on wheel locks and flint locks but until Ken Hunt began using acid in conjunction with hand engraving, it always look rather crude.

In regard to the gun in question, the 44-40 caliber Colt Single Action Army revolvers of that time were marked "Colt's Frontier Six-Shooter" in an acid etched panel on the left side of the barrel. So that part of the gun in question is probably correct.

Below, I have attached a photo of a Moore teat fire revolver from the mid-1800s. You can see that the barrel and cylinder were etched while the frame is engraved.

Regarding the Merwin Hulbert revolvers, while there may be etched examples, I don't know of any. Mostly MH guns were decorated in what I call "punch dots." Sometimes the punch dots were combined with some engraving or with deep, flaring cuts that I call "slash and punch." Actually, MH marked their boxes for decorated guns as "Intaglio Floral." Some examples are below.
 

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Roger Bleile

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#7
Well guys...heres my take on this. Definately not Louis D. Scroll style is all wrong in layout and details. It also looks like the metal may not have been prepped prior to engraving as it looks frosted in places yet the scroll is shines bright
And yes i know Jim Lowe for many years and he does some fine restoration work and a first class jeweler to boot. I do think his quote might be edited and taken out of context in this auction
CYA in a few days in Vegas safe travels
Hi Marty,

I am glad to find that you know who James P. Lowe is. He was a mystery to me. For what it's worth, I have attached a picture of his letter that accompanied the gun in question.

See you soon,
Roger
 

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FANCYGUN

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#8
The barrel address is very poorly cut so obviously it is not factory rolled or cut by a competent engraver Jims description puzzles me knowing what he knows lets see if JJ plugs in they are good friends
 

Stefan

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#9
A strange and suspicious letter. There is no data in it.
1. The number of the appraiser from the register of the guild of appraisers and a copy of the license.
2. Description of the subject.
3. Specifying what types of examinations are carried out by the appraiser.
4 personal seal appraiser.
5 numbers in the registry entry ekpertiz.
All appraisers are certified and approved. I am only allowed to evaluate jewelry and stones. I have no right to conduct other types of assessment.
 

tdelewis

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#10
As I look at the scroll and how they are cut it appears to me that these were cut with a pneumatic hand engraver. I say that because of the smooth cuts showing that there is no indication that it was done with hammer and chisel. Someone tell me if you are thinking the same as I do.
 

santos

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#11
[QUOTE="Roger Bleile,

Regarding the Merwin Hulbert revolvers, while there may be etched examples, I don't know of any. Mostly MH guns were decorated in what I call "punch dots." Sometimes the punch dots were combined with some engraving or with deep, flaring cuts that I call "slash and punch." Actually, MH marked their boxes for decorated guns as "Intaglio Floral." Some examples are below.[/QUOTE]

Thank you very much Roger for your ever clear explanations. I appreciate all your insights.

I love the samples of engravings on Merwins you show us, specially the bird!:thumbsup:

As the etching was factory made for this Colt, do you think they have used any photosensitive material to make a mask with a photographic film and then acid etch the barrel ?

I have been asked by a friend who collect old guns to refresh some factory marks that are 90% to 100% erased after he sanded all the rust. I’m not skilled enough to engrave letters that are less than 0,5 mm high, so I’ve tried some etching. Here is my practice plate:


It’s a quicker process than burin engraving, and not an anachronism if Colt’s factory employed it in 1880. Better choice than laser engraving IMHO.

No need to be an expert to see this marks are not roll marked , but my friend is quite happy with the result.;)
 

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santos

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#12
As I look at the scroll and how they are cut it appears to me that these were cut with a pneumatic hand engraver. I say that because of the smooth cuts showing that there is no indication that it was done with hammer and chisel. Someone tell me if you are thinking the same as I do.
LD Nimschke was certainly using an Uniform Parallel Point to avoid drag marks in the curves ;)
 

Roger Bleile

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#13
[QUOTE="Roger Bleile,

Regarding the Merwin Hulbert revolvers, while there may be etched examples, I don't know of any. Mostly MH guns were decorated in what I call "punch dots." Sometimes the punch dots were combined with some engraving or with deep, flaring cuts that I call "slash and punch." Actually, MH marked their boxes for decorated guns as "Intaglio Floral." Some examples are below.
Thank you very much Roger for your ever clear explanations. I appreciate all your insights.

I love the samples of engravings on Merwins you show us, specially the bird!:thumbsup:

As the etching was factory made for this Colt, do you think they have used any photosensitive material to make a mask with a photographic film and then acid etch the barrel ?

I have been asked by a friend who collect old guns to refresh some factory marks that are 90% to 100% erased after he sanded all the rust. I’m not skilled enough to engrave letters that are less than 0,5 mm high, so I’ve tried some etching. Here is my practice plate:


It’s a quicker process than burin engraving, and not an anachronism if Colt’s factory employed it in 1880. Better choice than laser engraving IMHO.

No need to be an expert to see this marks are not roll marked , but my friend is quite happy with the result.;)[/QUOTE]

Nicely done. :tiphat:

Regardless if you hand re-cut the letters or use acid, it will never look exactly like the factory roll die that pressed in and displaced the metal. However the difference is very slight.

Regarding the etched Colt, I'm not sure how they created the etching mask but it was done on a production line. Other variants of the frontier six-shooter have roll die markings so the etched panels were done in a limited time period.
 

Roger Bleile

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#14
A strange and suspicious letter. There is no data in it.
1. The number of the appraiser from the register of the guild of appraisers and a copy of the license.
2. Description of the subject.
3. Specifying what types of examinations are carried out by the appraiser.
4 personal seal appraiser.
5 numbers in the registry entry ekpertiz.
All appraisers are certified and approved. I am only allowed to evaluate jewelry and stones. I have no right to conduct other types of assessment.

Stefan,

You make some valid points, however, Mr. Lowe is not acting as an appraiser in this case. You will note that nowhere in his letter does he suggest the value or expected selling price of the gun. In this case he is making an attribution of the engraver. This is something that I am called upon to do occasionally but I never assign a value to the piece. The valuation is done by an appraiser who, taking into account the attribution and many other factors, assigns a value to the piece. Just the same, when I provide a letter of attribution my letterhead includes some of my qualifications along with a detailed, point by point explanation for my assessment.
 

Roger Bleile

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#15
"As I look at the scroll and how they are cut it appears to me that these were cut with a pneumatic hand engraver. I say that because of the smooth cuts showing that there is no indication that it was done with hammer and chisel. Someone tell me if you are thinking the same as I do. tdelewis"

Good observation but without the gun in hand we can't be sure. Since the Colt letter indicates that the gun was sent to S,H & G "in the soft", the gun was probably originally engraved by someone, so the gun in question may be a re-cut.
 

Stefan

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#16
Stefan,

You make some valid points, however, Mr. Lowe is not acting as an appraiser in this case. You will note that nowhere in his letter does he suggest the value or expected selling price of the gun. In this case he is making an attribution of the engraver. This is something that I am called upon to do occasionally but I never assign a value to the piece. The valuation is done by an appraiser who, taking into account the attribution and many other factors, assigns a value to the piece. Just the same, when I provide a letter of attribution my letterhead includes some of my qualifications along with a detailed, point by point explanation for my assessment.
I heard your name and I know. You are the author of books and the official chronicler of the guild of gunsmiths and engravers. You are known outside the United States.
The name of this appraiser is not familiar to me.
There is a British royal institute of appraisers. And there is a guild of antiquaries and antiques dealers. I did not hear his na
 

JJ Roberts

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#19
I try to get some answers about the Colt SAA at the next gun show I know the doctor who owns the gun.The doctor has a good reputation as a gun dealer. Also will talk to the auctioneer. J.J.
 

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