Would some of you experienced engravers explain your methods of doing French graying. How do you mask areas not to be changed? What chemicals do you use and what applicators do you use? How do you clean up your work afterwards? Please add any other tricks you may have.
French Gray Techniques
- Thread starter Glenn
- Start date
Back in the day, Lynton McKenzie would blue a firearm and strip it back with Brownell's blue and rust remover, then polish with a pink Pearl eraser. This produces McKenzie's 'French gray'. Lynton claimed that bluing did something to the surface of the metal and that the blue remover lifted the color but left whatever the bluing was supposed to have done (rust protection maybe? I've never found it to be protective).
You can also achieve a nice gray with Naval Jelly. Just polish with a pink eraser after applying and rinsing in water.
For two-tone masking you can use cheap nail polish to protect an area you don't want stripped. It can be scraped with a plastic point right to the edge of an engraved line. Obviously extreme care must be used when two-toning. One mistake and you're rebluing the darn thing.
I've done a bit of graying but not as much as some folks have. I hope we get some tips because this is really good information for engravers. / ~Sam
You can also achieve a nice gray with Naval Jelly. Just polish with a pink eraser after applying and rinsing in water.
For two-tone masking you can use cheap nail polish to protect an area you don't want stripped. It can be scraped with a plastic point right to the edge of an engraved line. Obviously extreme care must be used when two-toning. One mistake and you're rebluing the darn thing.
I've done a bit of graying but not as much as some folks have. I hope we get some tips because this is really good information for engravers. / ~Sam
Tim Wells
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I was up to Mom's place in Indiana last week and went to see Mike Dubber for a few minutes while I was in town.
He had one of the most beautifully engraved rifles I ever saw. It is one he did for the King of Spain and the french grey on it was done with toilet bowl cleaner.
I read somewhere that Marty Rabeno does it that way too but I don't know if they use a pink pearl eraser on it or not.
He had one of the most beautifully engraved rifles I ever saw. It is one he did for the King of Spain and the french grey on it was done with toilet bowl cleaner.
I read somewhere that Marty Rabeno does it that way too but I don't know if they use a pink pearl eraser on it or not.
Toilet bowl cleaner? Couldn't Mike face the guillotine if the King finds that out? Jordi...can you help?
Tim Wells
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Honeyyyyyyyy, bring the plunger!
fred carter
Member
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2006
- Messages
- 33
Glenn - over the years I have done quite a bit of the so called French Gray work on my blued steel knives. My technique, actually McKenzie's, is to use a very small pointed paint brush and Brownells blue stripper, which is mostly Phosphoric acid. Using just an Optivisor I very carefully paint the stripper onto the blued steel - watch the bluing disappear and if needed go over the metal again to get the parts that aren’t stripped. Nothing is masked off and you have to be very careful - I don’t do the whole engraving just parts at a time. When one area is the way I want it I take it to the sink and blast it with a heavy stream of warm water to quickly dilute and wash away the stripper. The warm steel is dried with a paper towel and other areas are worked. When finished the whole area is rubbed with the red end of the Pink Pearl eraser, retouched again in needed and black paint rubbed into the shading - when dry be sure to oil it and make sure the owner inderstands it must be oiled or it will rust after being touched. Keep in mind that if you drop or get any of the stripper on parts that are to remain blued that the whole thing may have to be repolished and reblued. Attached are a couple of projects I did using this method. Fred
Attachments
-
steel dagger handle.jpg -
English Bowie handle.jpg
Thanks Fred, This is very good as are your two photos. I'll bet that just this information so far on this thread will help any engravers who read these responses.
Sam a double thanks to you.
I would like to figure a way to get all the professional engravers to participate in this forum.
Sam a double thanks to you.
I would like to figure a way to get all the professional engravers to participate in this forum.
William Grubb
Elite Cafe Member
That's a great idea Glenn , if more professionals would participate in this forum,what a jump start that would be to young up coming engravers,as well some that's not so young.
fegarex
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Brownells, Naval Jelly or certain brands of toilet bowl cleaners are basically phosphoric acid of some sort. Phosphoric acid is the basic ingredent in "paint over rust" primers and such. It etches metal and seems to stabilize any oxidation. The difference is the percent of acid in the products. They all seem to do the same result, just some take more time than others. The surface can still rust but so can blued steel. On the same note, I've seen miltary Mauser rifles from 1909 that were in the white that are still in fine shape. It's a matter of keeping oil and upkeep. Some engravers have used muratic acid but that will rust back quickly and doesn't seem to offer any protection at all. As in all of these, be sure to read all warnings and don't breath the stuff.
Tim Wells
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I don't know if it matters or not but since I read Rex's comments about "certain" brands of toilet bowl cleaner I should mention that it was "SnoBol" brand that Mike used.
Jordi
Member
"SnoBol" toilet cleaner on my spanish King fine shotguns?... I'll keep that trick in mind for when I need it!
Don't worry Mike, I won't tell the King about that. Sorry Sam, We don't have guillotines in Spain to kill neither kings nor engravers.
Don't worry Mike, I won't tell the King about that. Sorry Sam, We don't have guillotines in Spain to kill neither kings nor engravers.
Last edited:
Hi Glen and all.
Here is something that I use to help with the durability issues of French Gray.
Make up a solution of acetone/ varnish mix.
Try to use the old style resin based varnish if you have or can get it.
I use about 95% acetone to 5% varnish.
Your gray finish should be prepared using your prefered phosphoric acid solution.
As it grays your metal, it very slightly etches and and open the surface pores.
It also deposits some protective oxides.
In a strong, hot solution it would become a parkerize ( military) finish.
We just need a milder, room temp. acid solution to get a nice gray.
Prepare your gray parts for dipping (prefered) or painting on the solution.
Mask off any parts that may be damaged by the acetone.
This is not usually a problem for me as most of my work is on gun parts.
But you need to protect many types of knife handles etc.
When you are ready to go, fix a wire to any parts you are going to dip.
Warm the metal with a hair dryer for a moment or two.
Dip the part or paint or mop the solution on to the gray.
Work quickly and you will notice that the warm metal evaporates
mixture off the part right away.
At this stage it will leave a somewhat smeared surface, no worry.
This is just some of the varnish that is sitting on the surface, not in the
etched pores of the metal.
Put it in a good place to dry for the next 12-24 hours, not hot or cold.
When it is dry we need to clean the excess varnish off the surface, leaving just enough to remain in the pores and keep them sealed.
If you are sensitive to acetone wear gloves.
Just barly dampen a piece of lint free cloth (old T-shirt) with acetone.
Wrap a small portion of the cloth around your finger and wipe the surface with a sweeping motion.
Do not attempt to clean the surface completely at one time.
It is important to not get the surface wet with acetone as this will also remove the varnish from the pores at this stage.
Give it a few moments to redry between surface cleaning sesions.
When I have the surface nice and clean I like to let the whole thing redry for 24 hours before I ink the details with oil base Speedball printers ink.
Couple of cautions.
The acetone/ varnish mix if highly flamable, use with care.
It should only be used with good ventilation.
Keep out of the hands of children.
The phosphoric acid mix is usually pretty mild, but it should be kept away from children or pets.
I generally use the one that Lowe's sells for cleaning tile grout.
Be sure to read the caution label.
For you guys and gals using some form of paint to blacken the details I want you to know that I have not tried this over the acetone/ varnish sealer.
I can't see it being a problem if the varnish in the pores is given proper drying time but I'm not sure.
On the good side I have used this sealer on several French Gray trap guns that are heavily used but carefully cleaned. They have held up for quite a few years with no rusting.
Yes, you can just coat the surface of the gray finish with a sprayed on coat of something.
That's just like a lot of the English guns had to protect the color case finish in the old days. Some still do.
I don't like this and I think it's easily damaged by cleaning and distracts from the finish of the piece. Just my opinion.
Please use this and any other system or formula you see with caution.
Remember....nobody NEEDS an engraved gun, it's not worth getting hurt over.
Best to all, John.
Here is something that I use to help with the durability issues of French Gray.
Make up a solution of acetone/ varnish mix.
Try to use the old style resin based varnish if you have or can get it.
I use about 95% acetone to 5% varnish.
Your gray finish should be prepared using your prefered phosphoric acid solution.
As it grays your metal, it very slightly etches and and open the surface pores.
It also deposits some protective oxides.
In a strong, hot solution it would become a parkerize ( military) finish.
We just need a milder, room temp. acid solution to get a nice gray.
Prepare your gray parts for dipping (prefered) or painting on the solution.
Mask off any parts that may be damaged by the acetone.
This is not usually a problem for me as most of my work is on gun parts.
But you need to protect many types of knife handles etc.
When you are ready to go, fix a wire to any parts you are going to dip.
Warm the metal with a hair dryer for a moment or two.
Dip the part or paint or mop the solution on to the gray.
Work quickly and you will notice that the warm metal evaporates
mixture off the part right away.
At this stage it will leave a somewhat smeared surface, no worry.
This is just some of the varnish that is sitting on the surface, not in the
etched pores of the metal.
Put it in a good place to dry for the next 12-24 hours, not hot or cold.
When it is dry we need to clean the excess varnish off the surface, leaving just enough to remain in the pores and keep them sealed.
If you are sensitive to acetone wear gloves.
Just barly dampen a piece of lint free cloth (old T-shirt) with acetone.
Wrap a small portion of the cloth around your finger and wipe the surface with a sweeping motion.
Do not attempt to clean the surface completely at one time.
It is important to not get the surface wet with acetone as this will also remove the varnish from the pores at this stage.
Give it a few moments to redry between surface cleaning sesions.
When I have the surface nice and clean I like to let the whole thing redry for 24 hours before I ink the details with oil base Speedball printers ink.
Couple of cautions.
The acetone/ varnish mix if highly flamable, use with care.
It should only be used with good ventilation.
Keep out of the hands of children.
The phosphoric acid mix is usually pretty mild, but it should be kept away from children or pets.
I generally use the one that Lowe's sells for cleaning tile grout.
Be sure to read the caution label.
For you guys and gals using some form of paint to blacken the details I want you to know that I have not tried this over the acetone/ varnish sealer.
I can't see it being a problem if the varnish in the pores is given proper drying time but I'm not sure.
On the good side I have used this sealer on several French Gray trap guns that are heavily used but carefully cleaned. They have held up for quite a few years with no rusting.
Yes, you can just coat the surface of the gray finish with a sprayed on coat of something.
That's just like a lot of the English guns had to protect the color case finish in the old days. Some still do.
I don't like this and I think it's easily damaged by cleaning and distracts from the finish of the piece. Just my opinion.
Please use this and any other system or formula you see with caution.
Remember....nobody NEEDS an engraved gun, it's not worth getting hurt over.
Best to all, John.
Last edited:
fegarex
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
John,
Reading your post reminded me of a story I must tell. I was teaching a class the same time Diane Scalese in Kansas. She was working on a pair of SAA Colts during the "off" times and had them nearly finished. She had used your method of French Gray and knew that I was pretty handy at assembling these things. So, in the Candlewood Suites in Emporia KS the two of us were busy putting the final touches on a nice pair of Colts. Diane was inking in the engraving on one side of the table and I was on the other side assembling one. Both of our hands were black, each of us with a Colt in our paws. I told Diane "This is really going to be hard to explain if anyone walks in right now". I'm sure you had to be there, but it was a pretty strange sight.
Reading your post reminded me of a story I must tell. I was teaching a class the same time Diane Scalese in Kansas. She was working on a pair of SAA Colts during the "off" times and had them nearly finished. She had used your method of French Gray and knew that I was pretty handy at assembling these things. So, in the Candlewood Suites in Emporia KS the two of us were busy putting the final touches on a nice pair of Colts. Diane was inking in the engraving on one side of the table and I was on the other side assembling one. Both of our hands were black, each of us with a Colt in our paws. I told Diane "This is really going to be hard to explain if anyone walks in right now". I'm sure you had to be there, but it was a pretty strange sight.
Bill Brockway
Member
If you'll go to the Fine Embellishment Forum in the Knife Network, you'll find some pictures of French gray, done by the McKenzie method, except I used Brownell's "Steel White" to lighten the blacking.
www.knifenetwork.com/forum//showthread.php?t=39250
www.knifenetwork.com/forum//showthread.php?t=39250
I will add the french gray info to the Resources sticky...or find another place for all this fantastic information. Stickies are limited in space, so I might archive much of this forum info on iGraver somewhere. I'll be working on that as I have time. Thanks to everyone for their contributions. This is really fantastic.
Rick Eaton
Elite Cafe Member
Fred,
Thanks for the great post of your knives. Been a fan for a long time.
Have you tried the blue stripper on damascus? if you have does it etch the layers?
Does it affect the polished surface any, by making it greyer etc.?
I've removed some of the heat coloring on my knives by beadblasting but, don't like the frosted finish as much as a polished one.
Thanks to all for the info, I'm going to have to give it a try.
All the best
Rick
Thanks for the great post of your knives. Been a fan for a long time.
Have you tried the blue stripper on damascus? if you have does it etch the layers?
Does it affect the polished surface any, by making it greyer etc.?
I've removed some of the heat coloring on my knives by beadblasting but, don't like the frosted finish as much as a polished one.
Thanks to all for the info, I'm going to have to give it a try.
All the best
Rick
fred carter
Member
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2006
- Messages
- 33
Rick - thanks for the comments - I have not tried it on damascus only mild steel and 0-1 for the blades. The engraved steel is fairly polished before engraving and the stripping gives it a bit of an etched look, not shiny at all. I think that Tim Herman did some very light bead blasting with very very fine glass beads on some of his stainless engraving and it looked very good with a bright frosty look - you might want to ask him. Also - congratulations on nomination into the AKI. Fred
Sponsors
