GRS or Lindsay?

[mlurth]

I am just getting started in engraving. I have taken a class at GRS and have my own studio that uses GRS equipment. But my question to everyone is, which is better, GRS or Lindsay equipment? and why.
All I have known is GRS and I am interested to see what you think!

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Welcome to the forum

There are all sorts of tools used on this forum. Hammer/Chisel, burin, GRS, Lindsay, NGraver.

All of them are top of the line tools made to high standards and create beautiful works of art in the right hands. Likewise they can all create a butchers mess in he wrong hands.

Everyone has a personal preference as to what they like best. But the bottom line is there is no "one tool is better than the other" It's more a matter of what you personaly like useing. No one tool will make you a better engraver as that comes from your imagination, designs and skill base.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[vilts]

Tool fight! Tool fight!

People use both, people do amazing art with both (and without any system) and people speak good and bad things about both. If at any way possible, you should try Lindsay system and then draw your own conclusions.

I got along with GraverMax just fine, but man how I'm loving the Lindsay Classic with PalmControl.

Viljo

 

[Danny C]

How much do you want to spend?
How much convenience do you want?
How much room do you have to put equipment?

These are all limiting factors. If none of them are a problem, then the top of the line is best.
If you have a smallish space then putting the compressor somewhere else is necessary, but then the controls for the GRS is not at hand, so the Lindsay steps up.

If convenience is paramount and no other considerations apply - then it is the Lindsay Palm Control. No foot pedals, no knobs to adjust. All adjustments are on the tool (except for air pressure - but it is on the control unit that supplies the air).

GRS makes great tools - There just happens to be one better. Look at the ability to make adjustments quickly. How does the tool feel? Some GRS handpieces have the air attached in the middle of the back end, for some this is awkward, for others, no big deal. GRS has a small handpiece that is shaped like a graver, so is the Lindsay, both shapes make using the tool much easier - but they are NOT the same, or work the same.

I personally haven't heard of anyone selling their Lindsay and buying a GRS because it was better, however - not that someONE didn't, just haven't heard of it.

 

[jimzim75]

So what do you think about the Redwings winning the Stanley cup? Detroit Rules.

 

[JT Kinney]

Mr. Jim
That was a very smooth change of subject. As Mr. Biggs stated a tool is olny as good as the hand controling it. I like Mr. Vilts prefer the Lindsay Airgraver. It just feels more natural in my hand, and has a much lighter makeup. I started with GRS tools, and enjoyed them also. I chose the Lindsay system for it's compact design, and feel. The Quailty is hard to beat.

JT

 

[KCSteve]

As the others have said, the answer to your question is: yes.

One of them is better (probably). But which one? That depends on you. A powered system is most likely going to be better than hand push or hammer & chisel (but then again, for some people and/or some tasks...)

I'm lucky enough that I now have both systems. There are subtle differences in the ergonomics that can be critical to how the system works for you. I'm that way with cameras - Nikons are dead bricks in my hands, Canons (except for the very top models) are just wrong - I have to look at my finger to get it on the shutter button. Minolta (which became Konica/Minolta which became Sony ) fit my hands like they were made for them. So I shoot Minolta.

So far GRS and Lindsay (AirGraver Classic) are both working well for me. I've got a little more skill with my GRS stuff because I've had it longer but that's just a matter of getting used to the settings that work best for different cuts with the Lindsay.

Vilts pointed out a difference that is major for most people - foot pedal vs. palm control. I've tried the GRS AirTach and it is nice but I've got a pretty good feel for the foot pedal so I'm saving my money for now. I have found that I've got no touch standing up though - I've got my Lindsay system set up in a sweet little portable system - The Box O' Happiness and I've been using it at lunch time at work. Best place I've found so far I'm standing and quite frankly I'm doing horrible. Do great with it at home where I can sit so it's not the equipment, it's me, standing.

That portability is the great advantage of the Lindsay system. The system overall is smaller and has less 'stuff' involved.

GRS has two advantages: price and permutations. I think the price difference is partly because they're bigger and sell more units. With Lindsay gear you're pushed toward the way Steve does things - and he does them quite well so that's not generally a problem. With GRS you can cobble up a setup that does pretty much anything engraving related. Not that this matters for most folks, but if you want to do something a bit different than the usual it could be important.

If you can get a chance to try out a Lindsay system that would let you see if there are any ergonomic issues that matter for you. If you add your location to your Profile there might be someone in the area who can let you try one out.

The one case where I'd definitely say to go with Lindsay over GRS for the core of your system is if you're going with Palm Control. The AirTach is nice but it's yet another box and set of hoses to deal with. Unless you have any issues with holding the graver 'right' for the PalmControl - the AirTach system is, once again, incredibly flexible.

Actually I'd also say go with the Lindsay if portability is a major issue for you.

 

[Brian Hochstrat]

 

[Doc Mark]

Here we go again!

I am an avowed amateur and will never make a living engraving. I've only used the Lindsay palm control for one day and I was impressed with it's fine construction. However, I didn't like all the knobs and adjusting screws on the handpiece. It was just a tactile turnoff for me, but I can readily understand the practicality of having the important adjusting features on the handpiece. When it comes to the actual cutting, I'm partial to the GRS system with the Airtact. It just seemed more sensitive to use and for some reason, I could do far more detailed work more comfortably. I modified the Airtact actuator to my exact style of engraving and could not be any happier. I usually tend to immediately head toward the most expensive tools available, especially when they get such rave reviews. But, please, if you can, try both systems. It is hard when your first starting to know what tool features will become truly important in the long run. I've never found reaching 20 inches or so to adjust the Gravermax or the Airtact any hardship. You rarely need to change settings after you select your graver and handpiece and adjust for the style of cutting your doing. I do have a remote air pressure control on the workbench which makes everything simple. Another big plus for the GRS is the Quick Change system for the changing of gravers. Nothing is quicker, there are no tools needed, just pull the old graver out and pop in the new one. Lindsay's portability is unmatched. The ability to use CO2 bottles and a simple pressure gauge is marvelous for those who travel to shows and set up demonstrations. But, in reality, how many of us will ever need that kind of portability? So as you see, you need to evaluate what features are going to be important to YOU, and are you willing to pay the premium. If you are starting out with a foot controlled system, than either system will work pretty much the same. If, on the other hand, you want to go directly to palm control types, then give the Airtact a chance. Don't buy into the concept that it is "a Chevy compared to a Rolls Royce". Both systems, as has been mentioned before, are capable of extraordinary things in the hands of a master engraver. (Then again, so are simple hammer and chisels. Just look at some of the recent postings by Phil Coogan!) The tool IS important, but only in the context of how comfortable and natural it feels in the hand of the artist. So, if you can, try them both and critically judge for yourself.

Mark

 

[monk]

not a cop out-- i use both-- and i like both. i also do a bit of pushgraving, and a bit of hammer and chisel work. you have used grs tools ! what were your thoughts ? what we like- pooey ! did you feel good using the stuff ? if so, there should be no question, esp if you were taught on the grs equipment. i never used the gravermax, only the gravermeister. for over 30 years. the tool is still performing as when new. i've owned 2 gravermeisters. 1 i ended up selling as i no longer have the need for 2 machines.

 

[Dave London]

Jim Z
Now you really do want to a fight

 

[Tim Wells]

To answer the question asked, I would say don't be afraid to get an Airgraver it will be a good addition to your arsenal of tools. You will find tasks you prefer it for just as you will have tasks you will stay with your GraverMach for. They really compliment each other nicely.

As a side bar, people who turn a blind eye and rant about how much better one system is than the other and make it like you have to choose either/or, only handicap themselves, if there is not room on the bench for more than one quality tool, clean your bench. If you identify yourself by the tools you use, you in turn become a tool yourself. Something to ponder -Brian

Took the words right out of my mouth, uh fingers I mean.

 

[mlurth]

thank you everyone for your input! I am going to emporia state in the fall for their engraving program! I hope to be a friendly face to GRS and am looking forward on expanding myself as an engraver and a person!

 

[mlurth]

I first started engraving in the spring when I was taking a printmaking class. My teacher showed me how to use the hand push burins and he thought I had a natural talent for it. I don't know if this is true, or if he was just being nice. over the months I have grown to love it even more. I wish I could show you some of the things I made in the GRS class. When I finally get home to Cedar Rapids, Iowa I will have to post some pictures, but for now here are some prints I made in printmaking using copper plates and the burins.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

All the very best for your future.

You'll be with some excellent company.

Cheers

Andrew

P.S. For some reason the links don't seem to work properley and you are asked to log in.

 

[Tira]

Mlurth, Good luck in the fall with the engraving program. Undoubtedy, you will see a fair number of us while we visit Emporia.

There have been many threads on this exact topic before. If you do a search on it you will probably have a book's worth of commentary. I think what Brian H. said kind of sums it up. Tools are good to use, but the artist stands separate from the tools.

 

[jimzim75]

I use em both, I like em both, I like push graving and hammer and chisel.
Detroit still rules. Go Wings.

 

[KCSteve]

Doc Mark is a perfect example of someone who does find one system better than another and for exactly the reasons I said - the ergonomics just work better for him.

Mlurth

You might see if you can put a copy of the pictures here in the Cafe - that way those of us not on Facebook (or behind corporate firewalls that block it) can see them.

Sounds like you're going to have a lot of fun in Emporia!

Hope your home is in a high part of Cedar Rapids! There's a whole lot of 'not good' going on over on that side of the state (and all the others downstream).

 

[Christopher Malouf]

... boy does Robin Meade look hot this morning.

 

[jimzim75]

I take it, your wife doesn't read the Igraver Café..