Hard steel breaking graver points

[dave gibson]

I'm having a terrible time trying to engrave a pair of h.d. upholstery shears. Somehow I got a scroll outlined on one of the blades but I'm busting graver tips much faster than I can sharpen them. I think a heat treatment might help by making the metal easier to work????. Who would I look for to get this heat treated???. Can the origional hardness of the metal be restored after engraving? If for some reason the customer doesn't want to forgo the extra cost, does anyone have any advice how I can just get through the last couple of inches? The last section I tried to work busted 8 graver tips on a small small scroll, about a half inch. I've tried the tungsten piston, shorter heels,dubbing the tip, hi power, low power,different angles of approach, hss, m42 and carbalt. Any advice would be appreciated.
thanks,Dave

 

[Sam]

Dave: Personally, I'd never engrave something as brutally hard as scissor blades. What you're attempting is extremely difficult (impossible?). It sounds like you've tried most graver materials, heel and face angles, etc. There are some materials that just can't be engraved, and this may be one of them.

 

[dave gibson]

That's not what I wanted to hear Sam, had I only known... (next time :thinking: )Trouble is I'm already in up to my knees and I might have to get out before my butt's all wet. I had no idea scissor would be so hard. My inexperienced mental picture would compare scissor steel to gun steel, so there should be no problem?? right?? wrong........plan B?

 

[Roger Bleile]

Dave,

Generally any type of blade is too hard to engrave unless you are working on it prior to heat treating. That said, in your situation I would increase your face angle drastically. I have had to go as much as a 90 degree face when I hit something unexpedly hard. Try a 120 degree carbide with an 80 degree face, 5 degree heel, and a dubbed tip.

Good luck,

Roger

 

[pilkguns]

my solution to sometimes being asked to engrave something really hard like a knife blade, (usually from a local jewelry store) which is usually names,dates etc with a smidgeion of scroll is to stipple it in with a carbide dental burr. It puts a nice visible mark on the polished surface, and can easily be added to one side or the other to straighten up a letter or something. Its not reall engraving, but most people can't tell the difference anyway, so charge the same.

But yeah, you've tangle with a snake that can' t be whipped with normal engraving methods

 

[tsterling]

How about etching the blade rather than engraving? It won't be as pretty, but may be a lot easier.

Here's a thread that talks about the basics: http://www.engraverscafe.com/showthread.php?5065-Acid-etching&highlight=Etch

 

[silverchip]

i think you have found an ol maid in a bag of popcorn. there just ain't no eatin that.Sorry to p in your wheaties like that.Maybe try to negotiate to engrave something softer for them, you'll both be happier .

 

[monk]

cacti are generally quite difficult to climb. scissors are no different. these could be annealed, then engraved. then re-heat treated. if you do this, i hope your wallet is loaded. :no:

 

[Sam]

As Roger said, you can crank up face angles, dub the tip, and see if it'll cut. The next question is can you do your best work on something so hard and using gravers with radical geometry? Hopefully so, and I'm sorry I don't have a better answer for you, Dave. This reminds me of the time I cut a new nail nick into the broken-off blade of a Buck knife. Yep, I got it done, but it wasn't pretty and it was miserable to cut. There was no way I could have done decorative engraving on it, even if I'd wanted to. Scissors are dang hard, too.

 

[dave gibson]

So...the difference between me and a lightbulb........ a lightbulb can be unscrewed

 

[Paul Chung]

I personally think the only way to do this is soften the damn thing, engrave it and re harden it. It can be done if it's steel they used to do it at Purdeys for some parts that used to come in for repairs that was impossible to cut.That said you have to know what you are doing of course.Vacuum annealing will work but i think you have to send it to a professional to do that or try the 'oven' annealing process.Basically that means heating the item up to cherry red and let it cool down very gradually over a period of hours in heated a oven.
I can't gaurantee it'll work but worth a try.
And to reharden it just heat it up to cherry red again and dump it into a vat of oil.

 

[KSnyder]

Dave , you can heat the blade up to cherry red and let it air cool, it may / should be some softer after that. after the engraving is done , re-heat to cherry red and quench in light oil, then polish it and temper back to straw color. Achieve this by laying scissors on fine sand in a steel dish and heat on the stove burner watching the color in good light, when it turns light straw color(light yellow) get it off the sand and let air cool. or...........you can lay the scissors blade on a flat piece of steel wide enough so the whole shibang don't fall off and with a propane or Mapp torch heat the bottom of the steel and watch for the same color change in good light......it will happen much faster than the sand method so watch the color and remove when it starts to turn. the sand method usually takes about say 2 beers , er about 20 -25 minutes depending how big the scissors are. good luck with whatever U do.:hammer:

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Try cursing and swearing at the scissors in a really loud voice so the neighbors can hear you.............it won't make it cut any easier but it will alleviate the tension!!!!

On some jobs that's all you can do!!!!

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Buy the guy another pair of scissors and give them back to him unengraved!

Some jobs just aren't worth the hassle; you'll spend hours screwing around either resharpening or annealing the item and then will have the added headache of trying to reharden them and for what? You'll probably end up losing money (as you smash graver after graver) or working for next to nothing so personally, I'd just try to cut my losses. If it must have something on it I'd probably try the etching route but if you haven't done that before you're into a whole lot more time learning it.

Good luck, you'll need it........bet you've learned a valuable lesson here, eh? Always, always, always, test cut anything you're unsure of before you commit and let's face it, everyone knows scissors, knife blades, etc, are going to be hard.

 

[mitch]

paper beats rock, rock beats scissors, scissors beat gravers...

 

[Tira]

The only other think I can think of is to try a rotary type tool with a diamond bur. It won't actually look like engraving, but it could produce some type of pattern and may be able to salvage your project (all be it in a different way). If you try this practice with the rotary tool on some other piece of metal first. Good luck.

 

[billrice@charter.net]

Hi Dave

What type of Scissors are these? If they are Hair shears ( japanese ) then they are probably Stainless If they are older Fabric shears they might be high carbon, If they are plain old scissors they could have a chrome plating to them.
What I am trying to show you is be careful when you think you can soften a shear ( aneal them ) and then just put the heat treatment back on them. A shear has all sort of functions like the set and ride which make them work. You could ruin a shear and not be able to get back to the original scissor. I have a very good business in which I sharpen most scissors and shears on the market. I also dabble in Knife forging and Engraving. I would say probably right now the best you could do is what Tira said Use a High Speed drill and high carbon bits to do the engraving on the scissors. I would not recommend messing with the heat treating.

 

[azarel444]

The only other think I can think of is to try a rotary type tool with a diamond bur. It won't actually look like engraving, but it could produce some type of pattern and may be able to salvage your project (all be it in a different way). If you try this practice with the rotary tool on some other piece of metal first. Good luck.

Ive done some work with micromotors on metal and through experimenting learned that if you do what everyone says not to do and push the bur toward the lines like you would in hand engraving it creates a much closer look, deffinitely not hand engraved but much nicer than what the common techniques offer. I came from tattooing into engraving and the hand control i gained in tattooing transferred beautifully into engraving.