Help, please: Hardened Practice Plates?

Chapi

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May 31, 2008
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San Diego, CA
I have been engraving for about a year now, and I just completed my first firearm engraving(pictures to come soon). I think that overall, the piece looked passable, but it was not to the level that I would have liked, and not to the level that I was engraving practice plates at even. I actually cut all of the designs for the gun on practice plates first, just so there weren't any surprises, and Murphy's Law raised its ugly head and surprised me anyway, by making the gun steel way harder than the plates, forcing me to re-analize my designs and add leaves so that I wouldn't have to fight as much background removal. It took me twice as long to cut as I had promised the customer, and as I said, it wasn't up to the quality I had expected. Its so frustrating to look at the practice plates and the gun together. I am wondering if anybody knows of a source of hardened plates that would more closely approximate the hardness of your average engravable firearm, or is this something that I could do myself without a kiln or forge(I have hardened punches, but nothing large like a 4" plate-not sure if I could heat that much steel properly with the little propane torch I have). Any advice would be greatly appreciated,
-Chapi
 

Roger Bleile

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Chapi,

The problem with finding practice plates that are "the hardness of your average engraveable gun" is that there is no such gun. Unlike Europe and the UK where engravers receive a shotgun in the white, unhardened, and dissassembled from the gun maker, American engravers do mainly after market guns that are fully assembled, hardened, and finished. This is what seperates gun engravers from the rest of our engraving colleagues.

Before taking on a job I would check the Cafe's Tips section for the list of engraveable and unengraveable guns. If the particular gun is not mentioned there post a question on the forums to see if anyone else has experience with that particular make and model.

Even after checking you will find that hardness sometimes varies from one gun to the next, even of the same model. As an exanple I have engraved Ruger #1's that were modreately hard and then on a big job got one that was super hard.

If you have only worked on flat practice plates you are not ready to start engraving a gun unless it is to be only engraved on a flat part like a sideplate. One of the best ways to prepare for engraving on the contours of a gun is to go to a gunsmith and see if he has any scrap parts you can have or buy. When I was starting a gunsmith gave me two ten inch lengths of shotgun barrel he had from cutting off field guns to make riot guns. One of the best practice parts is a revolver cylinder. GRS sells practice revolver cylinders for just your purpose. The hitch is, after you are confident on the practice cylinder you start to engrave a stainless steel Ruger revolver and find that it is much harder than any practice cylinder.

Such is the lot of a gun engraver in the USA. In the past we had to learn all of these things by trial and error as happened to you but today a beginner can come here and get advice that is invaluable.

Good luck,

CRB
 

Chapi

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"Even after checking you will find that hardness sometimes varies from one gun to the next, even of the same model."

Sir, you can say that again. I did check the list, and this piece- the flat sides of a slide from a colt commander- was said to engrave beautifully. I do not doubt that they do, for everybody else, but the one I got a hold of sure didn't. One side was uniformly hard, and the other side was hard in little spots here and there, just to make things interesting. I think it would be easier to train for the hardness, rather than only work on the soft, and your words enforce that opinion. Thank you.
-Chapi
 

Andrew Biggs

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Hi Chapi

I would endorse Rogers comments whole heartedly!!!

If you want a hard metal to engrave then try some stainless steel as that can come in various levels of hardness.

From any flat plate to the contours of a gun, jewellery or anything with a complex shape is a completely different mind set and skills. Even holding the work is different.

Another problem that you are encountering is your lack of experience and skill level versus what you think your work should be like in your minds eye. You have only been engraving for a year so all the problems you are encountering are new to you. After a while, with more time and experience you will find these issues less challenging.

The time it took you is an indication of this very problem. Speed comes with time and experience and as a beginner you will take a lot longer to do anything.

If you talk to any engraver about their first gun they will all tell you the same things as you have experienced.

Your next one will be better and the one after that better again. Just keep at it as time and constant practice will cure 99% of the problems.


Cheers
Andrew
 

Powderhorn

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Chapi:

I would start making the rounds of gunsmiths in your area. Ask them for there old parts, barrels, cylinders, and ect. I have several that I hit regularly for parts. Make sure and tell them that they are for engraving practice. They can't give you anything with a serial number, barrels, hammers, trigger guards, barrels, are fair game.
 

Kevin P.

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Andrew, it seems you, Roger and Everett have answered all of Chapi's questions. Andrew you mentioned Stainless; does that present particular challenges?

I have a commission to do a money clip. I wonder whether SS is a better choice than Sterling? But after hearing Chapi's story, and your comments perhaps I should avoid SS. Any thoughts?
Kevin P.
 

Andrew Biggs

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Hi Kevin

I'm no expert on metals, that's for sure. Ray Cover wrote an excellent peice about stainless steels some time ago and I think it's in the tips archive somewhere. It's well worth reading.

A stainless steel that is excellent is the one that GRS uses for its key fobs and gun practice parts. I have no idea what number stainless it is but it's quite hard and offers good resistance to the tool without making it too tough. I would advise anyone learning engraving to buy these things as they are cheap, attractive and make for excellent projects.

No, don't avoid stainless steel as it's only another metal to cut. Some stainless is pleasant to cut and others not so pleasant just like any other type of metal. It's just a matter of what you get used to and learning to deal with it in the appropriate manner and with the right tools that suit the particular job you are cutting.

Cheers
Andrew
 

monk

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generally speaking, inexpensive items of ss that attract a magnet are usually engraveable. that it attracts a magnet speaks to the fact that the alloy has a higher iron content, and much less chromium and the other hard mtls. thus it's much easier to engrave.
 

Powderhorn

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Chapi:

There are 2 basic types of stainless, 300, and 400 series. The difference is that one is, marstinetic, and the other is austinitic. That being said , whats it mean?? Ok here is the deal;

300 series is a stainless that has more Chromium and Nickle in it. It is used in places where crrosion can be a problem. Think all those stainless surfaces in a resturant. Depending on the grade of the 300 series, as in 306, 308, 310, 316, they can run the gamit of soft to work, to non-machinable. Almost all of the 300 series is non magnetic. Also it is generaly a bear to engrave, think carbide.

400 series is a stainless that contains more iron, than crome and nickle. It is generaly used in places for tis easy machining, and its corrison resistance. Some of the 400 series will rust if exposed to moisture long enough. Most of the 400 series steels are slightly magnetic. The GRS Key Fobs are made out of 416 stainless. Also 400 seies is hard to find, except in the knife makers supply area. The only place that I could order in bulk, wanted me to order a 22,000 # roll.
 

Kevin P.

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Thanks Andrew, Ill check out Ray's tips.
Thanks to Monk and Everett also. A lot to digest.
Kevin P.
 

Andrew Biggs

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Hi McAhron

It's funny that you should mention that .............because I've had no luck with them. They keep breaking and shattering every 30 seconds because they are so brittle. The breaks tend to be catastrophic so when resharpening I end up taking a lot of metal off the face. I've tried every trick in the book like polishing, blunting slightly (dubbing) etc. etc. and every grind possible. So either I've got some dud gravers (which I doubt) or it's the way I use them (most likley cause)........................ And yet other people swear by them.

The most success I've had, even in 316 stainless, is with the Gensteel gravers as they tend not to shatter but become blunt so the sharpening is minimal.

Cheers
Andrew
 

jerrywh

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not long ago I engraved a couple of weatherby's . Tough as can get. I had my best luck by using the GRS carbide gravers with the bottom just a tiny bit rounded and a 60° face angle. It is more difficult to cuy a straight line with the bottom rounded though. If I didn't round the bottom they would only last about two or three cuts. Short ones at that.
 

Tira

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You may want to try the new c-max gravers from GRS as well. They are tough, but are engineered to be more impact resistant than the normal carbides. I have had great luck with them especially with a mirror polish and the new soft-hit collets - up to 2 hours before sharpening - in titanium alloy (6AL4V). This was with a 120 degree tool with regular heel. :)
 

Chapi

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I haven't had much luck with the carbalt gravers(and whatever the GRS version thats grey vs. shiney), but I haven't tried the new m42s nor the C-maxs yet, and I was also thinking of investing in the tungsten piston for my Lindsey Airgraver. I suppose if I were the responsible type, I would invest the money that I made from engraving that gun back into tools to make the next one go easier.
Also, I have found a readymade supply of hard steel to practice on-stamped steel magazines. They are tough as heck, but I have a whole lot of them and if they don't turn out, who's going to see them. I figure if I can cut them to look ok, then I will be better prepared for the next tough one. I might even be able to talk this first guy into letting me engrave one from that gun, and that might pay for a couple of gravers, if I can stand the bad karma from getting paid to practice.
 

DaveH

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Topeka KS
I just engraved a Stainless dog tag for my son, and it was the hardest metal I've ever tried to engrave. My brand new c-max flat chipped on the first cut. I ended up outlining the shark image using a c-max 120 ( which also chipped eventually) and using the rotary 850 to grind out the image. I managed to salvage the job, and I'm happy with the results, but doubtful if I'll do another one. BTW the item came from Rio Grande, looks great, but a nightmare to cut.
 

pappy

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Weatherly, Pennsylvania
Harder practice plates

Companies like MSC sell heat treated 4142 steel plates. I believe that they are in the 32-38 Rc range. This might give you a challenge!
 

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