Hello to all ! Let me first say that I really enjoy this site and I try to visit it daily. The people here are very knowledgeble and friendly. I've been considering trying my hand at traditional hammer chase and push engraving techniques. These methods would be used on muzzle loading longrifles where the majority of parts to be engraved can be put into some type of engraving vise. Metal types for the most part would be mild steel, brass, german silver, fairly soft metals. What I'm strugglinig with is deciding on what tools to purchase to get started as this will be a sizable investment. My goal is to eventually produce high quality engraving on these beautiful rifles. However, I realize that will not come overnight and may take years to achieve. I have considered the GRS system and the Lindsay Airgraver and I'm sure they are wonderful equipment but the limiting factor for me with these systems is cost. I guess what I am seeking is advice and suggestions on tools that are a little less pricey. I will break it down further on the higher cost tools. As far as sharpening systems what can you suggest that will give good consistent repeatable graver sharpening angles for both methods of engraving that I have mentioned? What would be your suggestion on an engraving vice? Thirdly, the big one. I realize you can't engrave what you can not see. I've had several people tell me the quality of their engraving increased with an increase in magnification. I am 44 with good eye sight and only require low power reading glasses. On a side note, the engraving on the original longrifles was generally not highly elaborate, although I am sure there were exceptions. What are your thoughts on magnification anywhere from the most basic form of magnification up to a microscope? In closing, I am needing advice on what tools I really need to invest my money on in reference to the methods of engraving I have mentioned. Tools that I can grow with as my abilities grow and will work on other items outside of longrifles. Right now I am pretty much looking at this as a hobby but who knows? I will inquire on a future post as far as how to obtain good instruction on engraving. So guys and gals please tell me what you think, tools that work for you and why, tools that you are going to purchase, etc. Let me clearly state that this post is not an attempt to start some kind of "tool war". Everyone has their opinion which should be respected. So please try and help me keep this on the positive side. Feel free to include pictures if need be and thank you very much. David
Introduction and tool questions
- Thread starter David G
- Start date
richard hall
Elite Cafe Member
iam not the one to give you advice,but i tell you what i have learned so far. iam a beginner myself, i bought a magnablock vise $450, chasing hammers $30,gravers $70, oilstones [2] $70, the art of engraving by Meeks $45, Lynton Mckenzies 3 dvds $140. since ive had no engraving classes, and thought there were no engravers close by i bought more and more books. thats not the way to go. youll have way over $800 invested, i suggest that you do what i didnt, take the initial start up money and take a $750 course, youll be further along than by trying to learn on your own like ive tried to do.
i can give you lots of info, but it's quicker and more informative, if you can call me. my cell is 724-328-4951.
if you can afford the call, i have unlimited minutes on my cell phone. i specialized in this form of work for quite some time. would share what i know. cant afford the call ? -- i prefer to use my e-mail. i tend to say way too much to clutter the forum with a bunch of jabber that's really too long and drawn out. by all means avail yourself of reading all the stuff that's on the forum. many lifetimes of engraving experience- beginners to advanced pro ! you may call this # any time up until midnite est. the forum- well i think it's best to begin at the last page an work forward to the present. don't hesitate to call, if this was a bother, i surely would not post the offer. good luck
if you can afford the call, i have unlimited minutes on my cell phone. i specialized in this form of work for quite some time. would share what i know. cant afford the call ? -- i prefer to use my e-mail. i tend to say way too much to clutter the forum with a bunch of jabber that's really too long and drawn out. by all means avail yourself of reading all the stuff that's on the forum. many lifetimes of engraving experience- beginners to advanced pro ! you may call this # any time up until midnite est. the forum- well i think it's best to begin at the last page an work forward to the present. don't hesitate to call, if this was a bother, i surely would not post the offer. good luck
David G
A while back I jumped into engraving with both feet. I haven't looked back since. I bought the GRS System complete. I have a large collection of engraving books that I have been collected for years. However the best thing that I have done was to get some formal training in engraving. My first class in engraving began on my 60th birthday. The instructors in the classes that I have been fortunate to taken are some of the best engravers in the world. Rick Eaton, Sam Alfano and Chris DeCamillis. My next class is being taught by another world class engraver Rex Pederson. I guess I have said all that to say this: The tool system is important, which ever you choose. Reference books are important. However the most important thing that a beginner can do is to take as many classes as you can.
Good luck on your adventure. There is nothing in the world like it.
Sandy
A while back I jumped into engraving with both feet. I haven't looked back since. I bought the GRS System complete. I have a large collection of engraving books that I have been collected for years. However the best thing that I have done was to get some formal training in engraving. My first class in engraving began on my 60th birthday. The instructors in the classes that I have been fortunate to taken are some of the best engravers in the world. Rick Eaton, Sam Alfano and Chris DeCamillis. My next class is being taught by another world class engraver Rex Pederson. I guess I have said all that to say this: The tool system is important, which ever you choose. Reference books are important. However the most important thing that a beginner can do is to take as many classes as you can.
Good luck on your adventure. There is nothing in the world like it.
Sandy
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richard hall
Elite Cafe Member
this may give you an idea, that is if i uploaded it correct
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richard hall
Elite Cafe Member
dave,the cart before the horse? youll need the eqipement later on anyway. my wife had been battling cancer for two years, we spent alot of money out of pocket, so i couldnt afford the class and be away at the same time, so i took a different route. doesnt matter how you go about things, just might take a longer spell to get there. like Monk said, read the threads on the Cafe, from the end to the beginning, it will help you decide which way to move along the engraving road. if you cant afford the classes, get the bare tools and practice on old water pipes, steel sheets, old brass, anything, but try to do a little something everyday if you can. you learn little by doing nothing.
David,
There is also Brian Marshal at the Stockton Jewelry Arts School who gives engraving instruction geared more toward the jewelry trade and I also have a school in Missouri geared more toward gun and knife type of engraving.
Here is a link to my school page.
http://rcoverengraving.com/engravingschool.htm
Here is a link to Brian's school
http://www.web-mex.com/sjaschool/workshop.html
Good luck with your new venture
Ray
P.S. Steve Lindsay is having a contest on his forum and is giving away a Classic handpiece as the contest prize. That might be a good way to get set up a lot cheaper.
There is also Brian Marshal at the Stockton Jewelry Arts School who gives engraving instruction geared more toward the jewelry trade and I also have a school in Missouri geared more toward gun and knife type of engraving.
Here is a link to my school page.
http://rcoverengraving.com/engravingschool.htm
Here is a link to Brian's school
http://www.web-mex.com/sjaschool/workshop.html
Good luck with your new venture
Ray
P.S. Steve Lindsay is having a contest on his forum and is giving away a Classic handpiece as the contest prize. That might be a good way to get set up a lot cheaper.
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carl bleile
Elite Cafe Member
when i started engraving it was hammer and chisel, very few engravers and they would not give up any info.
there were a few books but very hard to come by. things have changed in a very good way!!! people here are allways helpful, someone could tell you a tip in 10 min. that would take a year by trial and error.
i still use hammer and hand but i use the N-graver a lot( not that exp.) the GRS tools about 20% for finer slower more control, i only use a scope for banknote scenes and then only for finishing (old eyes) optivisors still work good. Read as many posts and tip as possable, ive picked up info.here from beginners. Read,learn, draw & draw and start to cutting. Hope you do well, Carl Bleile
there were a few books but very hard to come by. things have changed in a very good way!!! people here are allways helpful, someone could tell you a tip in 10 min. that would take a year by trial and error.
i still use hammer and hand but i use the N-graver a lot( not that exp.) the GRS tools about 20% for finer slower more control, i only use a scope for banknote scenes and then only for finishing (old eyes) optivisors still work good. Read as many posts and tip as possable, ive picked up info.here from beginners. Read,learn, draw & draw and start to cutting. Hope you do well, Carl Bleile
Powderhorn
Elite Cafe Member
David G;
There is a lot of info here on this sight, everyone from old hands, to new people. They can all teach you something. If you want to go cheep to start, I would suggest a bowling ball with a vise mounted to it, as was posted in another thread not to far back. Use an Opti Visor for magnification, Look on Ebay for some used gravers.
Now most frontstuffers were done by hand, or hammer and chisel, so I would recommend that you scrounge up a couple of books. #1 The Art of Engraving, by James B Meek, (avail from GRS). #2 The Basics of Firearms Engraving by Neil Hartliep, ( put out by the NRA). They cover both the hand, and H&C methods.
Some tools you will need right away, others you can pick up as you go, also follow Rays advise, and take a class, you will be big dollars ahead if you do. Also there is the advantage that you can try various tools at the schools. I don't know where you are at, but you might want to check and see if there are any colleges in your area that offer an engraving class, some do.
Here is the link to the Bowling ball Vise. http://www.igraver.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2556
I know that I forgot something, O sharpening, you can start with a crocker, and emery stones, or go the whole hog and get the GRS Hone system, or try the new Lindsay sharpening system. What ever they are they have there own quirks.
There is a lot of info here on this sight, everyone from old hands, to new people. They can all teach you something. If you want to go cheep to start, I would suggest a bowling ball with a vise mounted to it, as was posted in another thread not to far back. Use an Opti Visor for magnification, Look on Ebay for some used gravers.
Now most frontstuffers were done by hand, or hammer and chisel, so I would recommend that you scrounge up a couple of books. #1 The Art of Engraving, by James B Meek, (avail from GRS). #2 The Basics of Firearms Engraving by Neil Hartliep, ( put out by the NRA). They cover both the hand, and H&C methods.
Some tools you will need right away, others you can pick up as you go, also follow Rays advise, and take a class, you will be big dollars ahead if you do. Also there is the advantage that you can try various tools at the schools. I don't know where you are at, but you might want to check and see if there are any colleges in your area that offer an engraving class, some do.
Here is the link to the Bowling ball Vise. http://www.igraver.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2556
I know that I forgot something, O sharpening, you can start with a crocker, and emery stones, or go the whole hog and get the GRS Hone system, or try the new Lindsay sharpening system. What ever they are they have there own quirks.
Powderhorn
Elite Cafe Member
David G;
There is a good start up kit on Ebay now, it is a gravemeister, vise, book, sharpner, and hand gravers.
Ebay item # 300204687851 Hope it helps.
There is a good start up kit on Ebay now, it is a gravemeister, vise, book, sharpner, and hand gravers.
Ebay item # 300204687851 Hope it helps.
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Outstanding suggestions and replies. Monk, I wil give you a call but it will be over the weekend as I'm going to be away today. As far as instruction I'm located in Chatsworth, Ga. ( North Ga.) Is there anyone in the Atlanta or Chattanooga areas that offers instruction? It will be later on today before I can visit here again.
The Meek's book, The Art of Engraving and Neil Hartliep's book on firearms engraving are both available from Brownell's. There is a coupon in the Brownell's catalog for a discount on the Art of Engraving -- mention coupon authorization code 138K02.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/catsearch.aspx?c=564&p=4797
Gary
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/catsearch.aspx?c=564&p=4797
Gary
BrianP
New Member
I can personally highly recommend Ray's Beginner class. Expect a high intensity, "wear your butt out", training course...he builds upon your sharpening skills, drawing skills, computer skills, and engraving skills...don't worry if you have none of these to build upon...he will provide you with a strong foundation right from the getgo. Furthermore, his help doesn't end the day the class ends...I have asked numerous of questions afterwards and his responses were without hesitation.
To date, I have problably $7000 invested in tooling, books, etc...his relatively small class fee was worth double or triple what I paid. Quite an investment if I can say so myself. Good Luck, Brian
To date, I have problably $7000 invested in tooling, books, etc...his relatively small class fee was worth double or triple what I paid. Quite an investment if I can say so myself. Good Luck, Brian
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi David G
Without knowing exactly what your budget is it's really hard to give you any real practical advice. As you obviously know the sky is the limit to what you can spend on tools. You can start with hammer, chisel and a few basics at very low cost and if you think that you are enjoying it and as money allows then gradually get more high tech tools like the air assist engraving systems etc.
One thing I can tell you is, that no matter which way you go with the tools………..none of it will make you a better engraver. That part of it comes from entirely within yourself.
Winston Churchill uses home made gravers made from old industrial hacksaw blades in home made handles. I’ve seen some of Ken Hunts hand tools with the handles made from old broom handles. Weldon Lister uses hammer and chisel as does Alain Lovenberg and Philippe Grifnee. Sam Alfano, Ray Cover and Steve Lindsay all use the more expensive air assist tools.
The bottom line is that the person using the tools is what makes the difference. Not the tools themselves. The actual cutting of the metal is just one aspect of the art of engraving. There are many facets to it that you will discover over a period of time.
A class is the ideal way to go but may not be practical for financial/time reasons. That’s OK as there is a lot of resource material out there in the way of books and videos/DVD’s
To answer a few of your questions.................if you want to go the hammer and chisel way to keep costs down and can’t attend a class.
1. Resource material. “The Art of Engraving†By James Meek. “The Basics of Firearms Engraving†by Neil Hartliep, DVD/Video Lynton McKenzies set of 3 instructional tapes. These books and tapes will be your classroom and teachers.
2. Square gravers and a couple of Ongletts made of HSS. Handles (home made or brought) and a couple of Arkansas stones for sharpening. Plus a chasing hammer (which can also be home made initially if you have a lathe)
3. A vise initially can be a cheap engineer’s vise as you will only be working on small flat practice plates initially.
4. An optivisor for magnification. (if you need it)
5. Pencil and paper. Scribe, ruler, compass and all the usual little bits and pieces that come in handy
You can add all sorts of stuff to that list, and you will, but the reality is, that will get you cutting immediately.
And that’s it…………………………..the rest is up to you. Where you end up from there is anyones guess.
Good luck with your new adventure and don’t hesitate to ask as many questions as you like.
Cheers
Andrew
Without knowing exactly what your budget is it's really hard to give you any real practical advice. As you obviously know the sky is the limit to what you can spend on tools. You can start with hammer, chisel and a few basics at very low cost and if you think that you are enjoying it and as money allows then gradually get more high tech tools like the air assist engraving systems etc.
One thing I can tell you is, that no matter which way you go with the tools………..none of it will make you a better engraver. That part of it comes from entirely within yourself.
Winston Churchill uses home made gravers made from old industrial hacksaw blades in home made handles. I’ve seen some of Ken Hunts hand tools with the handles made from old broom handles. Weldon Lister uses hammer and chisel as does Alain Lovenberg and Philippe Grifnee. Sam Alfano, Ray Cover and Steve Lindsay all use the more expensive air assist tools.
The bottom line is that the person using the tools is what makes the difference. Not the tools themselves. The actual cutting of the metal is just one aspect of the art of engraving. There are many facets to it that you will discover over a period of time.
A class is the ideal way to go but may not be practical for financial/time reasons. That’s OK as there is a lot of resource material out there in the way of books and videos/DVD’s
To answer a few of your questions.................if you want to go the hammer and chisel way to keep costs down and can’t attend a class.
1. Resource material. “The Art of Engraving†By James Meek. “The Basics of Firearms Engraving†by Neil Hartliep, DVD/Video Lynton McKenzies set of 3 instructional tapes. These books and tapes will be your classroom and teachers.
2. Square gravers and a couple of Ongletts made of HSS. Handles (home made or brought) and a couple of Arkansas stones for sharpening. Plus a chasing hammer (which can also be home made initially if you have a lathe)
3. A vise initially can be a cheap engineer’s vise as you will only be working on small flat practice plates initially.
4. An optivisor for magnification. (if you need it)
5. Pencil and paper. Scribe, ruler, compass and all the usual little bits and pieces that come in handy
You can add all sorts of stuff to that list, and you will, but the reality is, that will get you cutting immediately.
And that’s it…………………………..the rest is up to you. Where you end up from there is anyones guess.
Good luck with your new adventure and don’t hesitate to ask as many questions as you like.
Cheers
Andrew
Powderhorn
Elite Cafe Member
David G;
I just remembered one important item that is a must have with your books, and videos, is the DVD by Sam on tool sharpening. Here is the link http://www.masterengraver.com/videos/
I just remembered one important item that is a must have with your books, and videos, is the DVD by Sam on tool sharpening. Here is the link http://www.masterengraver.com/videos/
Andrew, thank you for the detailed reply. Powderhorn, I'm considering the powerhone (GRS) as well and heard that was a great DVD by Sam. Due to the suggestions given here, the more I think about this the more I want to locate some hands on instruction. I have located a week long engraving class with the primary method being taught will be push engraving at a folk art school in NC. However, thats not schedule to take place until sometime in 09. I'm pretty much a sight learner- I learn best by seeing and doing and I don't won't to start off with bad techniques. I'll get the Mckenzie dvd's as well. I'm going to keep searching for instruction that's a little closer. Thank you all for replies as I learned something from each one.David.
Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
This thread would be a good one to save as a tutorial or sticky under the heading of "Getting Started In Engraving." David G's question or something close to it is asked frequently.
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