Latest practice plate

Bunic

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With the help of a lot of folks, I think I'm beginning to see how these things are supposed to come together. Lots of room for improvement, yet. CC welcomed.
 

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Peter_M

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That looks nice Mike, the shading is coming along very nice. I assume you are using a scope, tried some cutting steel and I was going by feel on the shading cause I sure couldn't see enough detail.

Peter
 

FANCYGUN

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Your shading lines should converge and not be parrallel to each other. Look closer at Ron Smiths book and examples.
 

pilkguns

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Overall it looks good, but there are definitely some areas you can improve. I think the most glaring thing is the backbone inconsistency because of the your shade lines running into where the backbone should be. You need to always leave a clear defined backbone so that your scrolls stand out from the background. I have used a white line to refine where your shade lines should have ended.

The next thing is the angle of your shade lines as they approach the backbone. They need to flow gently into the the perceived backbone line, not come in at a sharp angle. That’s one thing. The other thing is your shade lines are too parallel. The should be parallel converging, like railroad tracks at infinity.


I would say the shade lines you did at 3 are good, they all appear to be converging at some distant point around the bottom of the 6. Even the lines at 5 are good as they still appear to be parallel converging at about the 6 point. But the lines at the bottom half of 4 are running straight through the backbone at a hard angle. The really should come up and just kiss the inside of the backbone at the same angle the backbone is running. Most all of your shade lines the rest of the way around are coming in at too hard an angle. If your leaf outlines were drawn complelty in, as I have tried to do with the pink lines, then you can see that your shade lines are in conflict with them, instead the shade lines should be running parallel converging up to the back bone and parallel to the outside line of the leaf. (NOTE: I am not suggesting that the pink lines should have been engraved, only that their flow as seen by what is visible, is the same flow that should be towards that central convergence point. )

11 has shade lines coming at 90 degrees. This should never happen unless it is part of a totally separate leaf structure running underneath which would have pieces on both side and be visibly obvious that it belonged to d different scroll.
The leaves at 10 and 12 should be originated at the tail of 9, and all the shade lines should be converged at the bottom of the 9. Actually the shade lines between the 10 and the 12 almost do this, but that line at 10 definitely doesn’t; the lines at 12 are back to coming in at 90 degrees again..

Hope this helps, keep up the good work,
Scott
 
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Bunic

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Peter,

Tnx! Yep - a scope. I tried cutting at Ron's with an Optivsor and had a real problem 'seeing' what I was doing.


Fancy,

Tnx! Here's another one of those conundrums of scrolls. Some of the most elegant scrolls I've found on this and other forums, are those with shade lines that remain parallel throughout their entire curvature.

I'm posting another thread today that has the lines as you suggest. Seems like it all comes down to personal preference, style and what works.


Scott,

WOW! Tnx! for taking the time and effort to give me the help. Putting the numbers, lines and colors on this picture are really helpful in understanding your suggestions!

As mentioned above, I'm posting another thread today that incorporates your suggestions. I hope you'll do me the honor of similar inspection and comments.
 

FANCYGUN

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Fancy,

Tnx! Here's another one of those conundrums of scrolls. Some of the most elegant scrolls I've found on this and other forums, are those with shade lines that remain parallel throughout their entire curvature. Seems like it all comes down to personal preference, style and what works.


That is very true but not quite the way you have done it. But if you insist.good luck to you.
 

Bunic

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Fancy,

I'm not experienced enough to insist on any style of drawing or engraving. I have been assiduously studying what the Pros do and have done - including Ron Smith, Phil Coggan, LD Nimschke, W. Churchhill, S. Alfano, S. Lindsay, and many others (including some guy named Marty Rabeno!). I really desire to get good at this. I have tried to follow all the suggestions offered when I understand them.

Ron continues to encourage me to study what the masters do and then to copy them until I have the ability to embrace my own style. And I am far from that today.

As I have mentioned on my blog, none of the Pros on these two forums follow all of Smith's guidelines all the time. Their work changes depending on their customer's details, their mood and where they are in their own progress of study and advancing their skills.

To wit: here is my latest practice plate that Scott P. suggested I post here to show my progress. I hope it shows that I am open to all suggestions and admit my own naivete in this arena. CC always welcome...
 

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FANCYGUN

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Mike
What you have just in your last post is an improvement in cutting lines no doubt. BUT.what you have done here is copy one individual with this sample and that is Ron Nott, your teacher.
No way do see any influence of the other excellent engravers you have previously mentioned who do indeed break the rules occassionally. The key word here is occassionally and they know when and how to do it. YES even that other name you mentioned, Marty Rabeno, even does it. But not this way.

Marty Rabeno
 

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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If I may come in here, the second is perhaps an improvement on some parts.
In my opinion, most leaves are not "connected" the right way to the stem.
To do this properly, you should know were the leaves start on a stem and were they go back in.
The best reference I can give is this tread posted by Sam

arnaud
 

Bunic

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Marty,

Tnx! for your response. Actually, my drawings tend to follow Jason and Chris M's work. I really like their scrolls and shading, but I admittedly do a poor job of emulating them. Right now, I'm trying not to copy Ron's style. But you're right, I follow my instructor's direction when I understand it. And he continually criticizes my repeated errors.

Just this past Wednesday, Ron let me borrow a few of your older moldings along with some from Bone (?) and others. Masterful stuff!

But it's observations and comments like this that are really helpful to my progression. Please check out the post I made today and let me know if you can see any improvements. Tnx!


Arnaud,

The link you provided has a simple and very clear description of what I'm doing wrong and how to correct them! Hopefully the plate I posted today shows my effort to utilize what ya'll are sharing with me! Tnx!
 

FANCYGUN

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Mike I did check out the post you did earlier and that is why I commented the way i did. I think you are also getting confused with some western style factory engraving which has shading done with a liner tool. This is done to speed up coverage and and allow the engraver AKA factory to turn out more guns per man hour. As they say "time is money". What you are trying to accomplish here is not quick production type of work. Now look carefully at the refinements of the shading of Chris and Jason and you will seer what Scott and myself mean when we say the shade lines should not be parrallel and should gracefully converge. Even if it's to some hidden point as in a drawing with vanishing points.
You can do it.
 

pilkguns

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Looks like a lot of traffic on here while I have been out on the tractor this morning. Just to keep the flow of things in one thread, here is what said in the other one about the second picture above

This is a much better attempt. What I see here is a a lacking of depth change in the shade lines. Yours are the same depth throughout their entire cut pretty well, although some do go deeper slighlty at the end. But what they need to is get deeper (and thus wider) consistently through the whole cut. At the end of the cut, they should be basically the same depth as your spine cuts. If you were shading back under a preceding leaf, your depth would be the same as that leaf's outline cut.


oh and double dittos on what Marty said in post 11 above this one.
 

Bunic

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Updated photo - added cross-hatching shading

I added the cross-hatching this evening. CC welcome... Tnx!

Please let me know if these photos are large enough - 10" @ 96dpi.
 

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pilkguns

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Oh new image now. My thoughts are your crosshatching is fine more or less, but what still jumps out at me overall is the backbone lines. In your last example you were coming too far into the backbone, in this, you are not coming far enough. This creates a reverse dogleg effect, where the main backbone cut can be nice and concentric, but the interior leaf and shade lines make the backbone look doglegged.

To cure this, there should be an imaginary or invisible line that runs parallel to the outside line of the backbone. This invisible line should be uncrossed, but all your scroll, or leaf outlines should stop and start at this invisible line . Correspondingly, all your shade lines should stop at this invisible line. By the total of all these lines stopping at the invisible line, the invisible line becomes visible, which gives your backbone the definition it needs, and keeps it clean looking.
 

KCSteve

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Scott

I have to say that you're really 'on' in this thread - your explanations are just really coming through clearly and concisely.

Thanks!
 

Bunic

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Scott,

The numbered 'fixes' you linked are excellent for understanding suggestions - both booboos and their fixes. Thanks for taking the time to analyze and critique.

I'm working on another drawing I hope to start cutting this weekend that will include your suggestions along with others given. I hope you and others will chime in and give me those needed pointers.

It's interesting to me how your brain can tell something is wrong with a piece of art, but, being uneducated in that field, you can't figure out exactly what it is. I've taught portraiture classes and sometimes I can't figure out why some students can't 'see' their errors until you point them out. This is me now!!
 

John B.

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Mike,
Another potential problem for the future.
On your second scroll none of the elements touch the inside backbone.
This would make it very hard to know where to stop your background texture, especially a relieved background.
Even if you plan the job to have no BG texture it does not match the originating scroll.
 

Peter_M

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Scott,
Thank you for taking the time and explaining, such a great learning opportunity.

Peter
 

Bunic

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Mike,
Another potential problem for the future.
On your second scroll none of the elements touch the inside backbone.
This would make it very hard to know where to stop your background texture, especially a relieved background.
Even if you plan the job to have no BG texture it does not match the originating scroll.

John B.,

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I think this is what Scott is saying should not happen. The shading and elements stop before they touch the inside backbone.

Can someone clarify, please??
 

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