Making a watch dial by engraving

[doctorb]

Hi guys,

I have been looking into methods of wrist watch dial making and was advised to give this site a visit. I am very impressed by the work I have seen (especially the work by Christian DeCamillis), but as you can understand for someone new to engraving, there's a lot to learn. So perhaps I can get a little insight into the world of engraving, specfically that suited to watch dial making, or very small markings.

Are there any suggestions on a method which would be most suitable to making a dial (or more specifically, marking a relatively thin piece of metal with minute markings)? I am not looking to make an elaborate dial, just a relatively simple design with minute markers. Any insights, or examples would be very much appreciated.

 

[Tira]

Welcome Doctorb.

There are many engravers who are at this site, but I'm not sure we have many dial makers per se. There is a School of Horology near me and I've gotten to inspect many historic hand engraved examples of faces and cases. Are you speaking of hand engraving that would have been used to put the numbers, watchmakers name or scroll design on the face? Or are you speaking about an overall geometric pattern that is subtle and catches the light?

The first markings (numbers, etc.) were/are done by hand engraving. The second set of markings on these watches in a geometric pattern was done with a large lathe-like machine called an "engine turning" machine - also called a rose engine (I think). There is one of these engine turning machines on display at the school. The director told me the machines are very sought after and very expensive to acquire, but I do know there are people out there who have them and use them.

If you want to engrave the numbers, names etc. then make sure the dial is securely backed. By that I mean that you want the entire dial flush with a firm surface underneath it so it doesn't bend while you engrave. The only other issues would be how deep you cut so you don't puncture the dial and the skill of the engraver to be able to make the finest of cuts.

 

[Kevin Scott]

Doctorb, This also is one of the reasons I got interested in engraving. Haven't tried, but have learned a few things. Need accurate layout. The eye will pick out any deviation, and destroy the look. That is why we dislike so many of the refinished dials. One friend made a dial, and the name he engraved with a pantagraph machine. He then sanded down the dial to make the engraved lines finer, after starting with oversize thickness of silver. It looked great, very much like the high quality of 1920's mww. As for the minute markers, tracks, etc very high accuracy is needed to make lines with consistant wide and length. Not easy, but I think can be done by a very skilled engraver. I have a Horology magazine from the 1930's that shows a different process, using photography to make the dial transfer. They then printed the dial with ink, but you could instead use the transfer, and then engrave over the printing. If done precisely, the dial would turn out much finer than a refinished and printed dial. good luck with this, and hope you can figuire out how to do it. Also, it seems the ink used is a major issue, and was a key to the Swiss making great dials. The Swiss dial companies were very secretive about their formulas and processes, and unforntunatly led to the info being lost. That is why so many expensive Swiss watches have dials that don't compare to the old ones. I am new to this forum but I think it will really help you, and learn what is involved. Good luck, and hope you share on the forum what you learn. Kevin Scott

 

[Tim Wells]

If you are talking about making one from a blank piece of brass it is a relatively simple process especially if you have an existing dial with the feet still on it.

I've made them before but have no photos that I know of. To place the feet in the right spot I took a good dial and heated the feet up enough to where I could push the dial into a piece of plexiglass and melt the feet into that, thus marking the exact locations. I scribed around the dial and marked the center hole where the canon pinion comes up through and the sub second hole (tank cased watch).

Now you have a pattern. Drill holes the same size as the feet material (brass rod) where the original melted spots into the plexiglass and one in the center so you can later hold the dial positively registered while you back drill the locations of the dial feet. These only need to be a divit, not a hole; just enough to hold a little solder.

Silver solder the feet into those drill starts you made in the blank and trim them to length and you now have a dial. Lay the markings out carefully and simply engrave what you drew like you would anything else, just don't go through...

There are a couple of dial refinishing companies I've worked with for the past 13 years that do wonderful work but they don't do engraving. I'd encourage you to try it.

 

[monk]

closely examine some of the work mr alfano has done. mr biggs. mr lindsay. others as well. mr decamillis. their work all falls into this delicate class. not only small and delicate, but the quality is there too. i'd almost bet you'd require a microscope- to make things easier, and before i forget-- lots of practice.there's lots of fotos of "tiny" work to be seen in the archive. maybe not dials, but it will give you an idea of what these artists are capaple of doing.

 

[doctorb]

Thanks for the encouraging replies, all great advice and very much appreciated.

Tira: Just to clarify, yes, I am referring to the numbers, etc., not engine turning.

I have read on this forum about pneumatic engravers that I never even knew existed! Is there one engraver which is suitable for smaller work, like a "micro engraver" or something?

I know that this is the "Hand Engraving Forum," but has anyone got any information regarding the use of engraving machines, and their possible use in dial making/ engraving? Can a CNC mill do the same engraving job, or is there a difference?

 

[Tira]

Doctorb, There are different hand pieces or tools to do lighter or heavier work. That being said, the same geometries apply no matter the power behind it. Hand pushing the graver would give the lightest of lines as well. The largest factor in the consistency of hand engraving the dial would be the skill of the engraver involved.

There may be someone here that knows about c&c machining. It stands to reason that the watch dial could be manufactured or marked in that way. The markings will have a different look and feel to them. It depends on the look you are going for and what you are trying to achieve.

 

[KCSteve]

As Tira said, pretty much everything you see here is hand engraved.

The key to that is that the artist's hand is controlling the graver. Some of time the graver is powered just by that hand (push graving), sometimes there's a little hammer tapping away at the back end (hammer and chisel, also known as H&C, HC, etc.), and most often these days the handpiece they're holding is like a tiny little jackhammer so they get the control of push graving with the power of hammer & chisel. The air power just makes it easier to get a line. What you do with that line is up to you.

For a project like this it sounds like you'd either hand push or use an air-assisted system set to its lightest settings.

It's been fascinating reading this thread - thanks for starting it!

It sounds to me like the best course is to follow Scott's advice about using an old dial to make the plexiglass fixture and drawing your layout enlarged (to make it easier to be accurate) then using a computer / copier to scale it down and transfer it to the dial blank (lots of threads on transfers).

 

[Kevin Scott]

Doctorb, I am not familiar with using cnc operated machines, but it seems that is for production work, not for "one of". I suspect the old high quality silver dials with inlay enamel were made with a large pantagraph machine. I assume this is what you are trying to replicate. Learning about engraving has led me to study details on old watches more. It seems on Waltham and other early quality American pw, All the writing on the watch movement was hand engraved up till about 1890. Then is seems they used a pantograph. The top quality, low production Swiss watch movements were still being hand engraved until about the 1920's. Later I sometimes see a mix of hand and machine engraving on the movements. Audemar Piquet hand engraved some of their movements into the 1950's. The info on movements does not really pertain to dials, but it is something else to look at and enjoy if you are a old watch collector. Most collectors don't give the writing -engraving much thought, just that they like the look of the movement. Study the writing with a strong loupe, and I think you will find it interesting and will learn alot. The suggestion of making a large drawing of the dial, reducing it to the size wanted, and making a transfer I think is the way to go. Good luck, Kevin Scott.

 

[monk]

even though most pro engravers today use computers, scanners, and a lot of "techno" tools in their collective arsenal, all these people are artists. the final result comes from something held in the hand. the techno stuff just speeds up learning curves, and reduces bench time for folks trying to make a living at what they love. time is cash !
as for the cnc stuff, well- are you aspiring to be a mass producing individual ? or do you wish to be more along the lines of an artist ? either way, this, i'd say is quite a task to undertake if there's a thought of profit in the future. many variables to consider.

 

[doctorb]

even though most pro engravers today use computers, scanners, and a lot of "techno" tools in their collective arsenal, all these people are artists. the final result comes from something held in the hand. the techno stuff just speeds up learning curves, and reduces bench time for folks trying to make a living at what they love. time is cash !
as for the cnc stuff, well- are you aspiring to be a mass producing individual ? or do you wish to be more along the lines of an artist ? either way, this, i'd say is quite a task to undertake if there's a thought of profit in the future. many variables to consider.

Monk,

The CNC stuff is less the intention to mass produce and more along the lines at speeding up the learning curve. While I appreciate that the true art is in individual pieces and hand engraving, I doubt my ability to produce dials which I'm proud of displaying- especially being overwhelmed by the talent which is obvious on this forum. Though to answer your question, I am not looking to mass produce; just the most effective method for engraving dials for someone new to it, like me.

 

[rodstan]

evening doctorb,
have done quite a few restorations on old dials both pocket watches and wristwatches.Tim has it spot on for positioning of dial feet etc although I mainly use the front pillar plate as a master pattern.Engraving has mainly been on old english silver dials for champleve and French 18-19 century pockets.On some wristwatch dials I used to use a master pattern plexi about 6 inches in diameter and use the reduction in my pantograph to bring down to the required size.Both hand and pneumatic were used for cutting the english dials as they were larger and easier to dne off jobs on other more modern dials were layed out with a sector guage for minute divisions etc.See George Daniels book Watchmaking. for better info.
It all depends on the "look" you are wanting to achieve.I restore old watches for a living, so I go with the flow,.
Regards
Rod

 

[Tim Wells]

Doc,
I have a CNC table top mill and yes you can easily do it that way. If you have one and the CAD/CAM program to design it in and convert it to G code you can spit a dial out in no time. This is if you are proficient in it's use. There are a heap of ways to skin a cat as they say and it depends on what result/look you're after as to how you get there.

If you are interested in engraving or learning to do it the watch dial would be excellent practice. It is laid out precisely and the numerals are something you've written and looked at since grade school so if there is any error in your cutting you will immediately notice it. This will keep you on your toes but as you progress your grin will become wider, and wider.

Rod,
If I still have the few fusee chains I once had I'll give them to you next time we meet for your restoration parts stash.

 

[Kevin P.]

doctorb
I would think the first decision would be whether you want a dial machine engraved or a dial engraved by hand.
If hand engraved I would suggest Sam Alfano although there are certainly others on this forum capable.
The reason I suggest Sam is that Sam engraved in script the word 'airtact' on a copper penny in very small letters perhaps one mm. high. The engraving was to demonstrate the quality of a tool that GRS was introducing to the engraving world.
I think I've got the details right but Sam who is the chief moderator might correct me.
As I said, having seen the quality of work shown on this forum there are also others capable of the work you're after.
Kevin P.

 

[Leonardo]

Hi doctorb,

Just because a rose engine and cnc machines was mentioned, I would like to show you that, perhaps, my Artesà machine could be one of those "heap of ways to skin -that- cat"...

I am attaching two Guilloché-like sample pictures. I hope you like it!

Cheers, Leonardo.

PS. These engravings are 40mm diameter.

 

[Tim Wells]

Leo,
I just love machines and especially the complicated ones that make things like what you posted. Cool stuff!

 

[doctorb]

Rodstan, I've been trying to get my sticky fingers on the George Daniels book for quite sometime. It sounds like a great book. Thanks for the advice.

Tim Wells and Kevin P., right now I'm leaning to computer engraving- it seems the faster way to translate my ideas onto metal. Perhaps if this really gets serious I'll try out hand engraving; which will require a dedication to engraving rather than horology!

Leonardo, love that guilloche; it looks fantastic. The great thing is I LOVE Corel Draw X3, and it's what I draw my ideas in. I'll be looking into your way of skinning a cat!

 

[Kevin P.]

Leonardo, the engine turning looks great.
Can you give me a ball park figure for your 'Artesa'?
Sam showed a piece of aluminum with a sample of your machine engraving; the shading was impressive.
Kevin P.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I don't know if this could help, in Adobe Illustrator there is a tool called "Polar Grid Tool"
With these you can divide a circle in 60 parts with lines of 0,1mm.
Printed on bakery parchment with a laser printer one can transfer the design on a dial plate ready to engrave.

Of course any other pattern is also possible.

arnaud

 

[Leonardo]

Hi again!

Tim, I know you like the machines and want to thank you for your comment. Much appreciated!

dotorb, thanks to you too for the nice and humorous comment. That phrase sound really funny translated to Spanish!
Regarding the machine and Corel, I can tell you that any drawing did in Corel will be engraved directly without involving any post-procesing or numerical codification, only by clicking on the "go" button. It is really very easy!

Kevin, I am glad you like the pictures and the sample. Thank you!
Now, and talking about languages, please excuse my ignorance but I do not know what do you mean with the "ball park figure" expression. I guess that you are answering for an estimated price so, in this case, I would prefer to discuss this kind of info by e-mail or PM because I do not want to break any forum rule and hijack doctorb's post.

All the best, Leonardo.