Mixing metals for color inlays and overlays
- Thread starter Glenn
- Start date
Mike Cirelli
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Glen anytime you mix alloys into the gold for color you are going to make it harder. There are simply formulas for mixing in alloy. I would try to keep the metal no lower than 18kt, 22kt preferably. The alloyed metal Will work harden much faster and doing fine inlay with karat gold will take much more precautions because you could actually collapse your undercut.
Mike
Mike
Tim Wells
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Do you reckon there is a way to spot anneal the inlay once it's in the cavity or in the process of seating it? I've never heard any thoughts on that but couldn't you try this for example:
Place some heat sink clay around the inlay perimiter and cover the adjacent surface with it, say on a reciever or something. Then take the mini torch and play the flame only on the inlay material to re-soften it for further pounding, shaping...?
Being somewhat of a beginner I have yet to try an inlay but it seems like the "mini torch" with its small and controllable flame pattern would be able to be kept inside the inlay area and not the surrounding parent metal, plus the clay would draw off any heat that could pose a danger to the temper. Just a thought.
Place some heat sink clay around the inlay perimiter and cover the adjacent surface with it, say on a reciever or something. Then take the mini torch and play the flame only on the inlay material to re-soften it for further pounding, shaping...?
Being somewhat of a beginner I have yet to try an inlay but it seems like the "mini torch" with its small and controllable flame pattern would be able to be kept inside the inlay area and not the surrounding parent metal, plus the clay would draw off any heat that could pose a danger to the temper. Just a thought.
Tim Wells
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I know this isn't a metal for inlay but...
When I pound out a piece of 2024 or 6061 "O" aluminum ("O" material is in its annealed or soft state) on a shot bag or use an english wheel it will work harden before long. I have to take a rich acetylene flame and play it over it till the soot sticks and it will be re-softened for further shaping by brute force and ugliness.
I just don't see why it wouldn't work for gold or silver. But if you try it on any metal be absolutely certain that it is perfectly clean before beating, punching, burnishing or anything else lest you imbed any dirt or whatever into the metal you are trying to shine.
When I pound out a piece of 2024 or 6061 "O" aluminum ("O" material is in its annealed or soft state) on a shot bag or use an english wheel it will work harden before long. I have to take a rich acetylene flame and play it over it till the soot sticks and it will be re-softened for further shaping by brute force and ugliness.
I just don't see why it wouldn't work for gold or silver. But if you try it on any metal be absolutely certain that it is perfectly clean before beating, punching, burnishing or anything else lest you imbed any dirt or whatever into the metal you are trying to shine.
Jack Davenport
Member
spot annealing inlay
I am not an expert engraver, but I do know about heat treating of metals. If you try to anneal a metal that is held within a metal, the parent metal will have to be the same temp as the inlay or wire, in other words if this was a gun reciever that you were working on, you would have to bring the whole reciever up to the correct temp to anneal the gold. What temp is that? about 700 degrees or so, or at least cherry red. The parent metal wil act as a heat sink. Thanks for listening. Jack Davenport
I am not an expert engraver, but I do know about heat treating of metals. If you try to anneal a metal that is held within a metal, the parent metal will have to be the same temp as the inlay or wire, in other words if this was a gun reciever that you were working on, you would have to bring the whole reciever up to the correct temp to anneal the gold. What temp is that? about 700 degrees or so, or at least cherry red. The parent metal wil act as a heat sink. Thanks for listening. Jack Davenport
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Ken Hurst
Elite Cafe Member
Mike and Tim,
Both of you bring out good points that I have not thought through.
Spot anealing is an interesting concept. Thanks guys
I have tried spot annealing on a 18ct. gold inlay ---- didn't work. Ken
pilkguns
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
You can inlay anything into anything. Re, Weldon Lister's steel into steel tutorial. I have inlaid pink and green gold into aluminum, which is much softer than golds. Its all a matter of determination and thinking how to mechanically lock the two materials together.
Mike Cirelli
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
If you mix your alloy to a high carat standard it will inlay just fine. When your working with an alloyed gold it will take a greater skill level or what I should say is more cautious approach to accomplish it properly. Like I said before you could easily collapse your undercut when the metal work hardens and you try to force it in, or to much metal. When it work hardens it may not go into the undercut properly. Maybe Ray Cover would chime in on this he has inlaid a wide variety of different metals in his projects.
pilkguns
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I guess I don't still see what the question is. Mike is right, basically he said what I said in a little more detail. Inlaying is not that hard as far getting the inaly metal into the receiving metal. What is hard is getting all the peices to line up with each other, especially as you move into the harder alloys that will not push around like 22 or 24 k gold will. Or you beat on it to much and spoon out the inlay (you have to make a new one) or cave in the base metal (bad thing to happen). But the basic technique is the same. maybe you need to go deeper with your cavity for harder alloys, to give it an wider/easier ledge to work under. But the only way you can succesfully do this is to do it. You have to get a feel for how much a given metal moves when you hit it. And then you know, how exact you inlay has to fit your cavity both in terms of thickness of the inlay to depth of the cavity and and the width of the inlay to the width of the cavity. With 24 k, you can push over 1/16th of inch or more and work it forever almost, with rose gold, you better be on that line the first lick, or you can forget it .
So thinking abuot this some more, my advice would be, Don't attempt any alloy inlays until you have some good experience with 24 k inlays. Asking details of how to do harder inlays is like asking a blind person what the sun looks like when its warming your face on a cold winter days. You need that experience where you know intuitatively how much that metal will move for a given inlay thickness and hammer blow. Once you have that "feeling" in your hands/mind then you can start transforming that knowledge into working harder metals. AND on the other side of the stick, you have the knowledge of how much to hit because of the times you hit something too much, and screwed something up... and you have that experience of fixing minor screwups (from the softer gold) and can use that knowledge to fix the major screwups that are bound to occur sooner or later with the harder metals.
So thinking abuot this some more, my advice would be, Don't attempt any alloy inlays until you have some good experience with 24 k inlays. Asking details of how to do harder inlays is like asking a blind person what the sun looks like when its warming your face on a cold winter days. You need that experience where you know intuitatively how much that metal will move for a given inlay thickness and hammer blow. Once you have that "feeling" in your hands/mind then you can start transforming that knowledge into working harder metals. AND on the other side of the stick, you have the knowledge of how much to hit because of the times you hit something too much, and screwed something up... and you have that experience of fixing minor screwups (from the softer gold) and can use that knowledge to fix the major screwups that are bound to occur sooner or later with the harder metals.
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Scott,
The question was how does one get variation of colors in inlay metals. I don't know how to state this any other way.
I realize that this is advanced use of inlay materials, but we less advanced engravers must start some where. I tend to get the feeling from your last comments that there is discouragement in my persueing this inquiry. I'm sure what you say is true, but this unique form of inlay is being done. I was asking how it is done and how the colors are achieved.
Sorry, I did not understand your analogy.
The question was how does one get variation of colors in inlay metals. I don't know how to state this any other way.
I realize that this is advanced use of inlay materials, but we less advanced engravers must start some where. I tend to get the feeling from your last comments that there is discouragement in my persueing this inquiry. I'm sure what you say is true, but this unique form of inlay is being done. I was asking how it is done and how the colors are achieved.
Sorry, I did not understand your analogy.
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pilkguns
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Glenn, I'm not trying to discourage you at all. In fact the opposite, I am trying to encourage you to do more , but some of it can only be gained by practicing. And some things you need to learn to walk before you try to run was what I was trying to say.
But back to your original question, colors are obtained by different alloys of gold primarily, and occasioanly by using other base metals, like copper silver, lead, iron, aluminum, platinum etc. Gold can be alloyed from bright yellow to a dull bronze in the yellow hue, and then there are variants called white, red and green gold that are also called gold, since their majority alloy is gold. Mostly though, people use platinum or sterling silver in place of white gold, because of the difficulty in inlaying.
But back to your original question, colors are obtained by different alloys of gold primarily, and occasioanly by using other base metals, like copper silver, lead, iron, aluminum, platinum etc. Gold can be alloyed from bright yellow to a dull bronze in the yellow hue, and then there are variants called white, red and green gold that are also called gold, since their majority alloy is gold. Mostly though, people use platinum or sterling silver in place of white gold, because of the difficulty in inlaying.
pilkguns
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
here some examples of colored golds
the explosion is pink gold, and 14, and 24 K gold
http://www.pilkguns.com/images/photos/pearlharbor.jpg
the picture is not that great was taken years ago... 15 in fact was done for the 50th anniversary of Pearl Harbor
really need to re-do this photograph, but the ice cream cones are pink and green gold and silver, while the characters are 24k
http://www.pilkguns.com/images/photos/disneypp.jpg
the explosion is pink gold, and 14, and 24 K gold
http://www.pilkguns.com/images/photos/pearlharbor.jpg
the picture is not that great was taken years ago... 15 in fact was done for the 50th anniversary of Pearl Harbor
really need to re-do this photograph, but the ice cream cones are pink and green gold and silver, while the characters are 24k
http://www.pilkguns.com/images/photos/disneypp.jpg
pilkguns
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
you can buy them from your normal gold suppliers, and I am sure that they give percentages of alloys. I'ts no secret in the jewerly world, I am sure the stuff is on the net somewhere. What experiemental mixing I have done on my own was with an experienced jeweler friend. I wanted an easily inlaid rose gold, tried everything from 2k to 22k , and all of it gets hard darn fast. We also tried mixing up stuff trying to get blue gold, but made a lot of scrap instead.
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Christian DeCamillis
Elite Cafe Member
Glenn Its easy if you want to make pink gold add copper, to make it green add silver. You would need to purchase a torch ingot mold rolling mill draw plate and cruciable. Many of the golds that jewlers use are comprised of copper gold silver zinc and other compounds that make them better for casting or rolling etc. For inlay work you need not add antyhing but the percents of metal to give you the required color. It isnt neccesary to make 22 or 18 karat gold you can make it 19.353 if you wanted to. The higher the karat the easier to inlay.but I have inlayed 14karat without trouble. I also inlay gold into gold . You could also make some aroung 16 karat like the dentists use to use. The lower the karat the more pronounced the greens and reds or pinks will become.If you have the resourses mostly time and money, since the cost of gold is so high right now, you can make a lot of variations in small quantities such as a pennywieght or two of differnt colors and different karats. I hope this helps . Christian
pilkguns
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Chris, when we were messing around the pink carat alloys, he was mixing some things in trying to alleviate the work hardening properties of the copper. We fooled around a lot with it, both just copper and gold variations and copper gold, zinc, and some others metals that I don't remember. Same with the blue gold but that was always a disaster. Seems everything we tried was about equal going from anneal to work hardened. I had a plate set up in shop, trying the sample peices as he mixed them up. At the end, I decided to just to use the Frank Hendricks method of silver-soldering copper on the back, and using it to grab into the cavity teeth. And as I recall, we saw vary little variation with rose gold color from 2k to 22k, if you wanted a real red look, you had to stay with pure copper, which is why Ron Smith used it on his Indian inlays. Green gold, you can get quite a bit of tint variation from the alloy changes.
Most gold suppliers won't give you their exact percentages of the alloys used in their products "trade secrets". one of the most useful refrences is "The Jeweler's Bench Reference" by Harold O'Connor,it list around 25 formulas for different shades of gold from 22K to 14K.link to basic percentages.
http://www.dyjewels.com/je_goldcolor.shtml
http://www.dyjewels.com/je_goldcolor.shtml
Christian DeCamillis
Elite Cafe Member
I have never had a problem inlaying copper. I think that the inlay techniqueis to blame for people having difficulty inlaying harder metals. The teeth or barbs as well as the undercutting must be done so they dont bend and give and therein lies the problem with most people and inlay. One other thing is that when you mix copper with gold you must quench it as soon as it is poured , even while it is red hot or the metal will become very brittle. Christian
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