Help, please: New at engraving , need help getting started with a small budget.

[jzknives]

So I recently got interested in engraving after visiting a knife show and decided i would get some gear to start on this adventure.

I purchased these as my first handles
http://www.grstools.com/tool_handles/004-670.html

these as my first gravers
http://www.grstools.com/gravers-bur...onal-gravers/new-traditional-graver-flat.html

http://www.grstools.com/gravers-bur...-gravers/new-traditional-graver-onglette.html

http://www.grstools.com/gravers-burs-and-more/carbides/grs-tungsten-carbide-gravers.html



After messing around for a few hours it immediately became clear that I was either doing something completely wrong , or I was lacking something.

It quickly became clear that I needed a vice of some sort. I saw something about using a bowling ball as a vice so i picked up a 7 pound bowling ball from good will and am not sure what to do with it next. Should I just shave the top off and put pitch on there? or should I attatch some sort of vice?


Anyway it became clear that even though i didnt have a vice , my hand push graver handles were not "enough" to engrave in steel.

I dont have the money for a power graver. So Im guessing hammer and chisel is the next best step?

Or are push gravers more than capable?

Are there any good tutorials for people JUST starting out with the bare minimum of tools?

Like with exercises ?

I tried youtube and there was literally not a single video that was using "traditional" hand push gravers.

 

[Sam]

Welcome to the Cafe, jzknives. Did you read the Tips Archive on equipment for beginners? There's a good resource there so check it out. The iGraver Tutorials link also has lots of good information, although not necessarily for just starting out.

Hammer & chisel engraving is easier to learn than push engraving, although you'll eventually do a bit of that as well unless you go with a pneumatic handpiece in the future. Check out the iGraver tutorials on graver sharpening first. That's where it starts. Without the graver being sharpened properly nothing will work. Once sharpened, you can then tap the graver's handle with a light hammer to cut into the metal. I've also done a short tutorial on hand sharpening without a sharpening fixture. The Tips Archive is an excellent resource.

Welcome to the craft.

~Sam

 

[Kevin Scott]

Steel and stainless steel vary greatly as far as how hard to cut with push power. Ranges from not bad to almost impossible. Starting out practice on soft steel, not any stainless steel, or copper, with is very easy to cut.

You are right, there does not seem to be on the internet a lot of info or videos on push power engraving. And much of what applies to air power does not apply to push power. One of the older jewelry engraving books can get you started with push power.

It might be easier to learn hammer and chisel first, then push power.
Until you get a vice or vice substitute, you can work on cutting straight lines.
Research sand bags systems for a cheap vice substitute using hot glue to hold what you are engraving to a piece of wood. (For push power, not hammer and chisel).

A vice is important, but a good way to sharpen gravers is even more important.

 

[silverchip]

Plus look at the buy and sell section for use tools.It's a great place to find tools at used prices and the selection is pretty good too......

 

[riversedgehobbyengraver]

From one newbie to another, Welcome. Looking at your gravers you are doing too much to soon. Start with the square graver and put the others away for now. The first thing you need to get good at is sharpening your tool steel. Some say you can eye ball the tip, but my experience is that I seldom get the angles right every time. GRS has a tool sharpening fixture and Sam has a real good dvd on tool sharpening. The Lindsay sharpening system is another good system. I have bought them both and I like them both. Either one will give you the ability to sharpen gravers the same every time. Uniform graver sharpening will eliminate one of your newbie problems. Good luck

 

[Foster]

Welcome to the world of engraving! As I'm sure you're finding out, learning to push engrave can seem like a daunting task. It will become easier with patience and practice. Hang in there. I've been push engraving (a little hammer and chisel too) for a few years now. Although I'm not nearly as good as I'd like to be, I'm finally starting to feel like I eventually will be good at it. It just takes time and effort.

Personally, I would recommend taking some lessons. It's possible to learn on your own, but proper instruction and guidance will help reduce the learning curve. Although I've been at it for a while now, I'm seriously considering taking some lessons myself if I can find a really good instructor that still push/hammer and chisel engraves. *

A push graver can certainly engrave mild steel, though it might be easier to use hammer and chisel on harder metals. At any rate, a properly sharpened*graver is critical. Trying to engrave with a dull or improperly sharpened tool is an exercise in futility. It will require a grinder and bench stone(s) or powerhone and sharpening fixture/template or some combination thereof. It seems complicated at first, but just requires some research and practice.*Thankfully, Sam offers some excellent resources for learning sharpening as he mentioned before.

You will definitely need something to hold the workpiece that you're engraving, It's hard to beat a good ball vise/engraver's block, but they aren't cheap. Another option would be a peg clamp. I think I also saw a thread here or over on engravingforum.com about building a makeshift vise out of a caster wheel and peg clamp.

There are some push engraving videos on Youtube, but most of them are in Spanish. Even if you don't understand what's being said, watching the technique can still be helpful. Should be able to find them by searching for "grabados con buril".

As for other push engraving resources, I would recommend:

books:

- The Art of Engraving - James B. Meek

- The Jewelry Engravers Manual*

- Modern Letter Engraving in Theory and Practice*

- Engraving on Precious Metals

I think there used to be a couple of old engraving books online for viewing or download at Google Books too.

- Lynton Mckenzie engraving dvds

- there is also a video series by Heinar Tamme. I've watched a few of them and while they're incredibly dull, there is some good information in them.

Hopefully this helps a little.

 

[GTJC460]

Do yourself a huge favor and buy a good vice and some form of sharpening system.

I'd recommend the dual angle fixture by GRS as you can make any geometry you need once you learn how to use it.

You can pickup some diamond stones pretty cheaply on eBay. There's lots of Chinese dealers that have them for $8-10 each grit.

Engraving small lines with a push graver is quite enjoyable. Long cuts are much more difficult to make. It might be beneficial to get some chisel handles and a small chasing hammer to do your longer cuts.

 

[John P. Anderson]

I push grave. Practice in copper or nickels to start. For sharpening I use one of those cheap gray stones for a coarse stone and a hard Arkansas Stone for final finish. But then again it took me three years to get really good at hand sharpening. I've spent virtually nothing. I have a pallet of about 5 homemade tools that I use for 99% of my carving.

I meant to carve knives/guns but got side tracked into Sterling Silver and I fell in love.

You can do it but it takes an extreme dose of sticking with it.

John

 

[jzknives]

Thanks so much for the replies!

About the sharpening, the original order I made included one of those rolling screwdriver engraver sharpeners you can get for a few bucks. I immediately upon receiving it understand why nobody talks about them and instead ordered a Crocker style sharpener because it seemed like the right next step.


As for hammer a chisel engraving , I have looked and looked but I cannot find a place to buy the chisels. The only one I found was the lindsy one and its pretty expensive. Are there any ones I'm missing?

Also. With hand push engraving , is the lines that are going to be produced supposed to be more along the lines of scratches than deep pretty grooves? Are the groves only something that you get with soft metals or hard metals with power tools?

Because I'm hesitating on practicing because I think my technique is wrong and my lines are not deep enough.

 

[Sam]

My advice is to cancel the order on the Crocker sharpener, put that money toward a decent medium grit synthetic whetstone and an EZ-Lap diamond hone, and use the hand sharpening method I show on YouTube. Others might disagree, but I find the Crocker fixture a waste of money that could be better spent elsewhere.

You don't need special chisels. Use a square graver mounted into a wood or steel handle. GRS sells chisel handles and so does the Ngraver company. I prefer wood handles and many prefer steel.

You can buy a piece of 1/2" or 5/8" hardwood dowel and cut to 4" length for a chisel handle. Drill a pilot hole carefully in the center about 1/2" deep, clamp your graver in the vise, and drive the handle onto the graver. Grind a slight taper on the graver so it penetrates the wood. This is a very basic handle without a ferrule, but it will work just fine. A chasing hammer is best, but a small and light ball-peen hammer will work until you get a proper chasing hammer.

 

[John P. Anderson]

My hand sharpening improved when I added a couple small (.6"x.6") wood wedges cut to the basic angles I need. I use mostly two tools in my push work. A small flat and a narrow, 60 degree V tool.

The wedges let me visually check and align the tool before I start honing. I set them on the edge of the stone and hold my tool next to them at the start. The one with a 45 degree face I use most of the time. I can use it to check the face on all tools and it also works for the base angles for 90 degree square (V tool). I use a narrower tool than the 90 degree for some reason so I have another block that was meant to sharpen knives that I use for my side angles on that tool. Use your Optivisor to check your work and keep at it till it's proper on the angles and sharp.

Use a firm hand and stay true to the stone. You should feel the stone cutting the tool. I'm having good luck using 90% Isopropyl Alcohol for a cutting "oil" on the Arkansas Stone. It seems to keep it clean and evaporates with no oily mess on the workbench. I wipe the stone clean with a rag when done. When I'm sharpening I try to make the tool and stone "sing" a bit.

When working if the tip or corners of the tool reflect any light when observed under the visor they are dull. I slipped a lot till I mastered the process. Tool touch ups as you work are quick and easy when hand sharpening. It's main advantage. Disadvantages are many and thus the reason most folks use a "system".

John

 

[jzknives]

Where exactly are those chisel handles on grs?

 

[Sam]

http://www.grstools.com/chasing_hammers/044-220.html

They are designed to use the GRS QC Tool Holders:

http://www.grstools.com/graver-accessories/quick-change-holders/qc-tool-holder-for-1-8-mm-tools.html

The Ngraver Belgian style handles hold the graver with a set screw:

http://www.ngraver.com/tools.htm

 

[DKanger]

In lieu of a wooden dowel, you can buy brass, steel, or aluminum rod stock from Enco very inexpensively. Drill the end to hold the tip and thread a set screw in the side.



You can buy HSS steel lathe bits from the same source and they work for most applications. They come in 3/16ths and 1/8th inch with the smaller being preferred.



Smoky Mountain Knife Works sells a variety of diamond sharpening plates.



You can make your own hammer and handle (or several in different weights) if you don't have a small ball pein hammer. Choose an appropriately sized piece of round stock. Drill a hole in a block of hardwood and insert a hickory dowel into the hole. Drill a hole in the round stock and insert the dowel. Rasp and file the hardwood block to fit your hand. The hickory dowel gives the hammer some resiliency and rebound.

You can't get any cheaper, especially if you already have some of the materials on hand.

 

[GTJC460]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/140834397487?redirect=mobile

This would be an ideal diamond stone to use for sharpening your gravers.

 

[riversedgehobbyengraver]

I'll send you my Crocker for the cost of shipping. It is better than a sharp stick in the eye, but not by much.

 

[diandwill]

I'll send you my Crocker for the cost of shipping. It is better than a sharp stick in the eye, but not by much.

Not true! They are great at starting conversations like "What the heck is that?". They also make good paperweights.

 

[thughes]

And they make,a,pretty good limb line weight, at least mine did.

Todd

 

[jzknives]

Got my Crocker , that's some fine Chinese manufacturing right there.

It works but the whole thing needs tlc to get straight since they could not even drill the joints at right angles.


It's better than my roller thing though.

 

[Big-Un]

Seeing as how you already have the bowling ball, get a machinist's vise from Harbor Freight or another cheapie tool vendor and mount it to the ball. Place it on a small rubber wheel from the same tool place and you have a workable vise for starters. That's how I got started years ago, and it worked until I could afford a "real" vise. I also had a Crocker sharpener (still around here somewhere!) and never could get it to replicate the same geometry on my gravers. A waste of money and energy in my opinion. I might suggest in investing in Lindsay's basic sharpening system to get started in the right direction. The geometries are consistent and quick. Hand sharpening takes a lot of time to master, and I still do so from time to time, but the sharpening fixtures are way too easy and almost foolproof.

Good luck and keep the faith....it only gets better.

Bill