New tools; new possibilities

Baygraver

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Apr 10, 2008
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Berkeley, California
Hello all,

I’ve taken a particular interest in engraved calligraphy. I’d like to raise a point that I haven’t seen expressed.

I’ve carefully studied the directions for cuts of letters (slanted script) in Meek’s and others’ books. Certainly, this can be helpful but IMHO, I think those instructions are for push and hammer/chisel engraving and not entirely applicable to the pneumatic tools we have the pleasure of using. For one thing, we can make more “sweeping†cuts, not being limited to the shorter incisions that a burin, etc., requires.

I’m blessed by having my studio in a silversmith/restoration shop and have had the opportunity to closely study a lot of engraved items that come through there. Examined carefully with a loop, the “older stuff†can be very impressive and a lot of it can only be done with a push tool.

What I’m saying is that some engraving can be better done or at least given a different look with a pneumatic tool.

Perhaps someone will soon write a book about the possibilities created by our newer tools. Included might be diagrams of slanted script letters with little arrows sometimes pointed in different directions (or fewer arrows) from what we’re accustomed to seeing in the older books.

On the other hand, I might be totally off base here, showing inadequate respect for the traditions of engraving.

Regards, Jim Slaughter
 

Ron Smith

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Jim,

The techniques for cutting that you see in books are sort of like the training you get in classes. They give you the simplest ways to get started successfully, The experienced engraver can do anything with a push tool that you can do with a pneumatic tool except cut deep. That is where the hammer and chisel comes in. You are also more likely to cut a continous line with the H&C as you are driving the point rather than pushing it, iliminating the potential slips you might make with the palm tool, especially over curved surfaces.

The pneumatic tools are especially valuabe for relieving the stress of using a push tool. There is not even a comparison as to which is more enjoyable and easier to learn, but the direction of lines that the books show is to keep the cuts short to minimize slippage, before power tools were invented, but the beauty line of the script letter can be cut in one direction. This would be called back cutting. This an advanced cutting technique that any experienced engraver masters at some point. The pneumatic tool just makes it easier and faster.

Hope this clears up maybe a little known fact about palm tool lettering. Back cutting is necessary to get the flow of a line without changing the direction of the cut.

There is so much more to learn than what you can grasp in a class or a book. That usually comes with experience or being around an engraver all the time.

Does this make any sense?

Ron S
 
Last edited:

Baygraver

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
64
Location
Berkeley, California
Jim,

The techniques for cutting that you see in books are sort of like the training you get in classes. They give you the simplest ways to get started successfully, The experienced engraver can do anything with a push tool that you can do with a pneumatic tool except cut deep. That is where the hammer and chisel comes in. You are also more likely to cut a continous line with the H&C as you are driving the point rather than pushing it, iliminating the potential slips you might make with the palm tool, especially over curved surfaces.

The pneumatic tools are especially valuabe for relieving the stress of using a push tool. There is not even a comparison as to which is more enjoyable and easier to learn, but the direction of lines that the books show is to keep the cuts short to minimize slippage, before power tools were invented, but the beauty line of the script letter can be cut in one direction. This would be called back cutting. This an advanced cutting technique that any experienced engraver masters at some point. The pneumatic tool just makes it easier and faster.

Hope this clears up maybe a little known fact about palm tool lettering. Back cutting is necessary to get the flow of a line without changing the direction of the cut.

There is so much more to learn than what you can grasp in a class or a book. That usually comes with experience or being around an engraver all the time.

Does this make any sense?

Ron S

Ron,

Thank you so much for this insightful reply. It absolutely makes sense.

As I practice more, study the engraving that comes through the shop here at my studio and get instruction from Dave Giullietti (Engraver Dave here), I think the lights are slowly going on in my head (and hand).

I actually thought of you and other "experienced hands" as I started this thread. In effect, you are already writing that book by what you offer here.

Regards, Jim
 

Marcus Hunt

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The Oxfordshire Cotswolds, England
Very eloquently put Ron.

Also, Jim, don't be fooled into thinking air assisted tools will automatically give the engraver better results. There is some magnificent hand pushed lettering and script out there. When this was the only way of doing things, those old-time engravers got good at what they did. Some of the copper plate script engraved on a normal business card of the time was equal to, if not in some cases better than, a lot of stuff produced today.

What power has enabled engravers to do is a) reduce the learning curve when starting out. b) Reduce slippage as Ron says. c) Increase speed and output of work. It's not as tiring using air assisted tools as hand pushing. And d) opened up other areas and techniques that can be used, but this is in addition to and not instead of old techniques that are adapted to air assistance.
 

monk

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there's another thing to be mindful of; just because it's stated this is the one-and -only way something's to be done- well, maybe in your hand, it may work out better a different way. if a certain way is way too awkward, or downright uncomfortable, by all means, experiment to find a more comfortable way to execute a cut. i believe it's the japanese engravers that cut towards themselves ! it's all a matter of what works for the individual in the end.
 

Baygraver

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Apr 10, 2008
Messages
64
Location
Berkeley, California
there's another thing to be mindful of; just because it's stated this is the one-and -only way something's to be done- well, maybe in your hand, it may work out better a different way. if a certain way is way too awkward, or downright uncomfortable, by all means, experiment to find a more comfortable way to execute a cut. i believe it's the japanese engravers that cut towards themselves ! it's all a matter of what works for the individual in the end.

Monk,

Yeah, those Japanese engravers turn the notion that there's only one right way to do something right on it's head. There might be some quicker or easier ways to do some things in engraving, eg using power tools, but ultimately persistent commitment is the common denominator.

Regards, Jim
 

brengraver

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Joined
Aug 29, 2007
Messages
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Location
Homewood, Al
Hello Jim:
About 90% of my work is lettering, and I agree. I did a 24" tall sterling Tiffany loving cup yesterday (11 lbs.) and in order to get to the engraving, I had to do cut it all upsidedown, or from top to bottom. If There is one thing I learned from Mr. Meeks book, and one 30-minute phone conversation with him, it is that if the result is right, the way you did it is now important. Key word--RIGHT!

The great thing about the powered tools, is that you are able to do more work, and (perfect) practice makes perfect. I think, based on the last chapter of Meeks book, he'd be pleased to see the work produced with the new tools, GRS and otherwise.

Keep at it. Bob
 

Baygraver

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Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
64
Location
Berkeley, California
Very eloquently put Ron.

Also, Jim, don't be fooled into thinking air assisted tools will automatically give the engraver better results. There is some magnificent hand pushed lettering and script out there. When this was the only way of doing things, those old-time engravers got good at what they did. Some of the copper plate script engraved on a normal business card of the time was equal to, if not in some cases better than, a lot of stuff produced today.

What power has enabled engravers to do is a) reduce the learning curve when starting out. b) Reduce slippage as Ron says. c) Increase speed and output of work. It's not as tiring using air assisted tools as hand pushing. And d) opened up other areas and techniques that can be used, but this is in addition to and not instead of old techniques that are adapted to air assistance.

Marcus, All good points. I frequently am having to tell myself to "lighten up"; less power, lighter touch.

Also, those shorter strokes of push engraved items often convey the direction of the line (vector) while not running the full distance. This creates a very pleasing effect to the eye, the ultimate goal here.

Regards, Jim
 

Baygraver

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
64
Location
Berkeley, California
Hello Jim:
About 90% of my work is lettering, and I agree. I did a 24" tall sterling Tiffany loving cup yesterday (11 lbs.) and in order to get to the engraving, I had to do cut it all upsidedown, or from top to bottom. If There is one thing I learned from Mr. Meeks book, and one 30-minute phone conversation with him, it is that if the result is right, the way you did it is now important. Key word--RIGHT!

The great thing about the powered tools, is that you are able to do more work, and (perfect) practice makes perfect. I think, based on the last chapter of Meeks book, he'd be pleased to see the work produced with the new tools, GRS and otherwise.

Keep at it. Bob

Bob,

I'm finding that "right" varies with the situation, starting with customer preference. For example, an infant's sterling cup, which will get a lot of handling, needs to be fairly deeply cut to endure the use. They often seem to be done with upright ribbon cuts, but not necessarily.

The cup you're describing above probably wouldn't get handled quite so much, giving you a wider spectrum of ways of cutting.

Regards, Jim
 

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