On Account of I'm clueless?

Jim-Iowa

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Was on the GRS site looking at Gravers. I will have to start with push graving while I save for a machine.
I notice the QC gravers are short, would they be too short in a push handle or can I get a good start with the 022-581 assortment and a handle?
If not what would you reccomend?
 

GeorgeKhayata

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Hi Jim,
The QC gravers are a little bit short for push hand engaving but you can get the longer handle to strart with.
Good luck.
George
 

Mike Bissell

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GRS has a push graver handle made for the QC gravers and QC holders. The # is 004-805. I have used this set up at times for shading. They seemed to work fine for me. This or the longer handle will still be much cheaper than a gravermax.

Mike
 

Dave London

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Jim
I have a box full of push graver handles send me a email or pm and I will send you some.
 

LRB

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I am pretty much a beginner, and I may not know what I am talking about, but I believe you will learn faster, and see more good progress sooner, if you start out chaseing with a square graver. The push graver is a ***** to learn. I push graved for a while, but now use it only for cleanup and touch up, and fine detail. In my opinion, the push graver is only good in silver, and even that is a *****. I was amazed at what I could do without the slip problems, the first time I tried chaseing.
 

John B.

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Hi LRB.
Hope you don't mind if I make a little correction to your post.
I know what you mean and I cut quite a bit using a chasing hammer and chisel.
That is hammer and chisel engraving, cutting metal.
Chasing is not cutting metal.
It is moving (or chasing ) the metal around the surface by striking punches with a hammer or other object.
This is what "spoon chasers" do, for instance, to create hand wrought table flatware.
Chasing is often used in conjunction with with copper or silversmithing.
The confusion in names comes about because many engraver use a chasing hammer in their work.
But for the most part, they are not chasing.
About the only time most engravers do any chasing is when they use a hammer and punches to form and move metal in a sculpture.
The rest of the time they are doing hammer driven cutting or engraving.
Hope you don't mind my nit picking.
Best regards and a Merry Christmas.
John B.
 

LRB

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Not a bit. My ignorance has few bounderies in this field. I am self taught by trial and error. I started in '76 with a book written in 1909, and a few gravers a jeweler gave me. His father engraved, but he knew nothing about it. I did very little with it until a couple of years ago after watching the tapes by Lynton McKenzie. I learned more from them than anywhere else, but still have a looooong way to go. My only interest is line engraving as I would call it. No background removal, or stipling. I build 18th C guns, and only want to be able to reproduce the quality of the better American gunsmiths of that time, and I want to do it by hammer and chisel for the main part of it. I have been complimented on my work, but those came from sources that do not know good engraving when they see it. I know it when I see it, but at this time I do not have the skill to do it. I will keep trying however. That's why I am here. Thanks, I will never use that term again in a context related to engraving.
 

Marcus Hunt

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In my opinion, the push graver is only good in silver, and even that is a *****.

Hmmm, quite a statement considering virtually all fine English shotguns and rifles were 'push' engraved until very recently. Some still are but most engravers have now moved over to air assist. Most hammer and chisel work on guns was done by the continentals and a lot of this is crude compared to what can be attained by 'pushing'. Don't get me wrong, hammer and chisel has it's place but the push graver should in no way be consigned to engraving silver.....try telling that to the guys at Creative Arts in Italy!:D

cheers,
Marcus
 

Billzach

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I,ve had my gravermax for a number of years and use it on every carving , but i still find myself using my hand push graver on everything i carve ..after ten years of carving coins i still love to use my #37 flat push graver..I,ve mentioned this before, but on my hand push gravers i do not use a heel in carving coins, i,ve carved silver and gold coins as well as nickels with this size graver..
 

LRB

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Like I said, "in my opinion", and considering this person is a beginner, and considering that I might as well be myself, I would still recommend hammer and chisel to see faster results. Push graving in my experience is important, but mainly for touch up, and detailing.
 

Billzach

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Thinking back ten years ago, my first hobo nickel was carved using a small hammer and chisel, at that time a push graver would have a useless tool to me then..
 

John B.

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Hmmm, quite a statement considering virtually all fine English shotguns and rifles were 'push' engraved until very recently. Some still are but most engravers have now moved over to air assist. Most hammer and chisel work on guns was done by the continentals and a lot of this is crude compared to what can be attained by 'pushing'. Don't get me wrong, hammer and chisel has it's place but the push graver should in no way be consigned to engraving silver.....try telling that to the guys at Creative Arts in Italy!:D

cheers,
Marcus
Hello Marcus.
The Continental engraving done with hammer and chisel may often be in a bolder style than a lot of the English engraving.
But I would not call a lot of it crude.
When one looks at the engraving created by Phillippe Grifnee and Alain Lovenberg mostly with hammer and chisel, the word "crude" does not come to mind.
This names just two Continental engravers who use mostly hammer and chisel to create masterpieces.
Add to that some of the great German and other Liege, Italian and French engravers.
Many wonderful engravings came from the Masters at the old FN factory in Liege in the past. Hammer and chisel.
It's hard to think of the word "crude" when talking about the work of Lynton McKenzie. Bolder, maybe.
Again, most of it done with hammer and chisel.
Push gravers are fine. Power assist is fine.
But there is nothing wrong with the skilled use of hammer and chisel.
Just my couple of pennies worth.
John B.
 
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Marcus Hunt

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Hi John

Please note I said 'a lot' because I knew this might happen. There are always exceptions to any rule as we know. I was talking about run of the mill stuff ie the commercial/production work and comparing it with 'push engraving'. Lord knows I've seen crude pushed stuff too! It was a generalization and not meant to start Push v H&C wars, LOL. My comments were directed at JRB who was saying to another novice consign the push graver to the soft metals only level.

I agree with you 100% that there is nothing wrong with the skilled use of hammer and chisel. As you say, it lends itself perfectly to bolder patterns and carving, and there are many engravers (like McKenzie, Lovenberg and Grifnee) who use it to maximum potential. Indeed, I used to use it when a client wanted a bolder/deeper form of scroll. But often when it comes to the beautiful little flourishes such as English fine scroll, it doesn't lend itself at all well to the medium. Look closely at continental attempts at English Fine done with hammer and chisel; although the cuts are there (and are cut well) the whole pattern looks like a 'crude' copy. On some of the tougher steels though John, hammer and chisel is the only way to turn out a half decent job! So really it's horses for courses, you wouldn't try and paint a portrait with a 4" brush for walls after all.

I saw a Belgique engraver at the CLA Game Fair and given the perameters she had to work within (eg time per job) she had to work very fast and, I'm sorry to say it, relatively crudely compared with an English engraver who is given more time. Given more time and less commercial pressures I dare say she could turn out a much less crude job. So other factors also come into the equation

The book (sorry I'll have to get back with the author) Engraving On Precious Metals gives guidance on sharpening gravers and no two engravers will sharpen in exactly the same way. This means that the engraver gradually develops his own subconcious way of sharpening specifically for himself and for the job in hand. I find that if I'm going to push engrave using the sharpening fixtures just doesn't work and I find it difficult to hand push them. But with a whetstone I'm away and cutting easily. This is part of the learning process of engraving.

JRB, learning to 'push' does take time and you'll have slips if you're not careful, but no one becomes an engraver overnight. Learning just one technique is limiting so having more than one style to hand is a huge advantage. Using a sharpening fixture may be part of the problem as to slipage because you are having to learn to work around the tool (and its angles) and the graver doesn't become an extention of you. With a Graver Max/Mach this doean't really apply and the sharpening fixture make life much easier.

cheers,
Marcus
 
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