Help, please: searching Pneumatic graver'e eqivalent

[Sam]

Well, quite frankly, I'm glad to see you posting and even more glad to hear you're up to your ears in work. Not surprising considering the wonderful engraving you do. I know the feeling with stuff breaking. We went through a rash of that just recently. I told Abigail that it seems like everything we own needs repair this month!

 

[monk]

nuthin beats using a quality tool. the cheap stuff, well serious people usually end up replacing junk with quality after a time. i bought a gravermeister back when they were about $600.00. my old lady lost her mind with such a ridiculous purchase ! but,-- the gravermeister is still as strong as when i took it out of the box. iuse h&c, gravermeister, and the newer pneumatics. i i also do push graving. all depends on how i think something should be done. i pity the newbie who first buys into the powered way of doing things. there is a "feel" one senses doing push graving. none of my power toys feel that way, they're just faster

 

[rayf24]

Have just read through this post and forgive me for getting on the soap box here but it seem as if a powered engraving is not made in the good old U.S of A then it would be classed as rubbish, but let me first add that I do agree that a tool thats is a copy anothers tool is wrong having said that. I started with H&C and have now designed and made my own air powered tool for my use which by accident appeared in the back ground of a photo that I posted on another site which I stated it was not open to discussion when someone made comment about it. as for the Turkish item mentioned if one looks at the photo's on ebay I am sure most would agree it's of poor quality. even as I write this most of you know a new tool is on the verge of coming on the market from the engraverstudio which I understand and from several conversations with Christian, maybe what is needed to be the one that fills both worlds (hope so sound the dogs) So what I am saying and maybe opening myself up to a slagging off but there are other people out there that can and do have the knowlage to product quality products and just as much right to do so. Remember that old one NASA spent millions to design a pen to write in space and the russians used a pencil don't get to cocky

 

[Sam]

rayf24: I don't see how you came to your "rubbish" conclusion, but you did. The Turkish handpiece appears to be a clone of a USA-patented American made handpiece. While the maker has legal right to copy the tool and sell it where no protective patents exist, the question of ethics arrises and that turns into an endless discussion. It's not because it's not made in the "good old U.S. of A". It's because it's someone else's intellectual property. So please step down off your soap and box don't assume that the Turkish handpiece gets negative comments simply because it's not made in America.

 

[rayf24]

Sam
I wasn't targeting the turkish tool direct but would agree that it may well be a clone and in the case of mine the outer body isn't that different to steve it's whats happening inside , As I stated in the above post when someone made comment about it. I said then that I wouldn't discuse the tool being that it was on steve site and ethics as you put it would have been wrong to do so. It was then the PM from steve asking me to remove the post which I did, it's the attitude that no one should make or speak , design an air powered tool other that those already being made. for the fear of upsetting someone or someone in the club
sam if you wish me to delete the post just ask or remove it if you wish.
regards
rayf24

 

[Andrew Biggs]

rayf24

I think you are reading waaaaaayyyyyy to much into this whole deal. There is no "club" about any of this stuff. People are free to like, dislike, use, not use whatever they like for whatever their reasons.

This is about a knock off of a well known product......................pure and simple.

If someone wants to invent something different or whatever then that is fine because they have a right to do so. It will stand or die on it's own merits like any other product on the market.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Eddi]

Back to the original question.
A friend of mine bought a Gravermax copy from China. That one is very bad. I dont know about other ones.
I would personally rather buy a used old Gravermax than a Chinees copy.

Eddi

 

[Haraga.com]

Rayf24, show us your tool and tell us about it.

 

[rayf24]

Leonard
May just do that some time but I thinks at the moment I will let it be dont wish to wind anyone up more at the moment let the dust settle a little.
rayf24

 

[mrthe]

a little consideration....i have see this tool in ebay and for curiosity (i own a lindsay classic and i`m very happy with it) i have try to make some bids.... every time my bids was deleteds,i live in Spain for this reason i don`t think that was for a prohibitions to sell in USA,and after this i have ask to the seller in his website the price of the tool,and the answer was 1000$ for this reason........is not more cheap than a Lindsay tool and is a poor copy,now my question is.......after all,what is a good reason toconsidere buy this tool?

 

[Haraga.com]

That's ok rayf23. It's always nice to see other's tools.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

What a great thread this has turned into! I'm sitting here wondering how many of you are using PCs to surf the web and join in the Cafe fun? Not many of you I'll bet unless you are all using IBM machines as only they have the "right" to use that trademark. Everything else is a clone. But this is only semantics and the word (?) PC has become common parlance rather like Hoover is for vacuum cleaner.

The strange thing is that there are companies out there with computers ready and waiting to run like Apple Mac clones but they cannot get their hands on the relevant piece of software/coding to bring them to life and Apple won't release it. So Apple go on producing machines at 5x the cost of a PC clone and still manage to sell them despite this! They must be doing something right.

My MacBook Pro gave up the ghost yesterday afternoon and I guessed it to be a battery problem. My Mrs's Macbook power supply unit stopped working a few months ago so I got a cheap one from eBay for her. What I didn't realise was said psu belonged to my MBP and I was using the Macbook one. This wasn't powerful enough to boot the laptop with a totally knackered battery. So I spent this morning on a hundred mile round trip to my nearest Apple Store and bought a new battery and power supply. That cost me the best part of £160+. Why did I do this when I could've gotten cloned replacements at less than half the price? The answer is, peace of mind.

My MBP is a tool and as much a part of my setup now as my GraverMach and Airtact so as such I need reliability. There is probably nothing wrong with a clone battery but just supposing something went wrong with it after a few months and I end up having to buy another one. Two things I've learned in this life; 1) You get what you pay for and, 2) Buy cheap, pay twice!

The western economy has gone down the toilet because everyone wanted something for next to nothing. The likes of Walmart (for example) saw this greedy streak and suckered everyone in because it's cheap; something for nothing. This short sighted attitude by the people (not the very clever Walton family) has not only killed off independent stores but cost them dearly in manufacturing job losses as the likes of the Chinese take over the world economy. Now the strange thing is, I'm not an economist and neither do I have a university education but I saw this situation happening many, many years ago and I now look at the mess we're in and think, couldn't anyone else see this happening too? What are those in power paid for????

If you want something of good quality you have to pay for it, this is a fundamental rule of life. John Ruskin said this in the 19th Century:

“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When
you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay
too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you
bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The
common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a
lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well
to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will
have enough to pay for something better.”

So, if you are a hobbyist who just wants to dabble with engraving, by all means try one of the Turkish Airgraver clones. Or if you are a pro who already has a good setup and wants to see if this tool can cut the mustard, give it a go. Just don't expect too much I'd say. But there again, also remember that economies do differ and even though the Turkish tool is 1/3 of the price of a Lindsey, in Turkey, that's a small fortune. Also, let's not forget that by cloning stuff and then making it better was how the Japanese manufacturing industries started. The Japs couldn't design a camera or motorcycle to save their lives but they knew how to take things apart and copy it and, in the end, make it not only cheaper but better.

Okay, it's sad that someone's intellectual property rights might be infringed but it's the way of industry and of the world. It's no use crying about it. Could you imagine what it would be like if the guy who invented the wheel managed to stop anyone else making one? Or Mr Daimler or Mr Benz were the only people allowed to make gasoline powered engines? The world would be at a standstill very quickly.

GRS and Lindsey have a big enough following and branding to stand them in very good stead but let's not forget that the engraving world isn't that big and I doubt anyone would make their fortune making and supplying engraving tools alone as I don't think there are that many of us out there. They need to supply other industries i.e. the jewellery trade to make it work. I seriously doubt that this Turkish chap will make much of an impression with his tools at this stage but, if he does and he can improve on the existing designs and thereby create his own tool/brand (not just make knock offs) then good luck to him.

 

[mitch]

"Also, let's not forget that by cloning stuff and then making it better was how the Japanese manufacturing industries started."

Hey Marcus- that's pretty much just like we Yanks stole textile weaving technology from you Brits way back when!

 

[Mike Fennell]

Rayf24, actually Yuri Alekseyevich Gagarin, the Soviet pilot and cosmonaut, once told my partner that he was a big fan of the Fisher Space Pen, but he did keep a pencil as a backup.

As a tool fanatic, I am interested in every new thing that comes along. Keep inventing and developing.

 

[Haraga.com]

Rayf24, did you make the tool?

 

[Marcus Hunt]

"Also, let's not forget that by cloning stuff and then making it better was how the Japanese manufacturing industries started."

Hey Marcus- that's pretty much just like we Yanks stole textile weaving technology from you Brits way back when!

That's right Mitch, it's just what happens with manufacturing and the economy. Let's not forget that Britain joined the First World War because we didn't like the German's expansionist policies and the fact they wanted to take over the world. Aaahhemm........at the beginning of the 20th century the British Empire covered 11,400,000 miles of territory! And we wanted to stop the Germans taking over the world???!!! Protectionism always ends in tears and is partly why Japan declared war on the US in 1941.

There are ways and means of giving everyone a bite of the cherry though. As I see it, as these emerging economies get richer we have to deliver them quality branded products that they aspire to and that we can still produce. I think the days of mass production in the western economies are sadly numbered and we have to find other ways to make a living.

 

[mitch]

Here's a possible silver lining from people & companies in other countries violating our sacrosanct patents: If a patent holder refuses to license or otherwise allow anyone to bring out improvements, accessories, etc., it can stifle innovation. While that is the patent holder's legal right within his own country, there are undoubtedly instances throughout history where foreign 'infringers' were able to advance development on an invention because they weren't restricted by the original creators and didn't have to wait until their legal protection expired. (And I say this as somebody who holds 5 patents of my own...)

 

[DKanger]

Evolution of the Air Graver
Everything is invented, improved, modified for a specific purpose, and then made smaller. It won't be long before someone makes an air engraver small enough to engrave on the head of a pin. The current hold up is miniaturizing the gyroscopic stabilizer to keep it steady. Once that problem is solved, we can move on to engraving atoms using an electron microscope.

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