Help, please: Sharpening A Flat Graver for Pave with the power hone...

[Nathan Ott]

I've been a practicing goldsmith/stone setter for a little over 8 years. I started fresh out high school, apprenticing with an old family friend a (fortunatly for me) master Dutch goldsmith.

Biography aside, stone setting has always been one my passions, followed more recently by engraving. Since there seem to be many other goldsmith/stone-setter/engraver hybrids around here I thought someone might be able to help me with a little something.

I recently bought a GRS powerhone with a dual angle sharpening fixture. It's a life saver for acuratly preparing my gravers for scroll work or jewelery engraving. Now maybe I'm making this too complicated, but I've been having a hard time using it to sharpen my gravers for stone setting. It seems like the graver drags against the diamond wheel too much if I set the fixture at a 0 degree angle and the results I've got with the few old flat gravers I've tried weren't as nice as the results I'm getting on my healed squares and 120s.

I think part of the problem is the flat graver I have are grobet quick change gravers, which have a slight bevel to them, which cause the wheel to grind into the top part of the side first. I've tried to correct for this but it seems like more trouble than its worth. Would it be easier for me to shape the tool from a blank? Does someone else have a useful suggestion? Or am I being too lazy?

I'd go back to sharpening by hand but this silly tool (like all GRS equipment...) has me spoiled for life.

 

[Kevin P.]

Perhaps I'm missing something. Why are you setting the fixture at zero degrees>
And what are grobet quick change gravers?
If your heeled squares are OK your flats should not be a problem.
There's some misunderstanding in your process.
If you described your process of sharpening a flat, include every detail; it should be easy to sort out.
Kevin P.

 

[Gemsetterchris]

Nathan, your post is abit confusing to say the least.
However, i recently started using lindsay templates for both flat & knife... while these are designed for engraving i have been using them quite nicely for setting.
Only took a while to get used to having a heel on a flat (never had one in 20yrs) but it cuts!

Basically a flat is just flat underneath, if you got that and the sides are flat and you have a 45 degree face i can`t fathom whats the problem.

 

[lesholmes]

Perhaps handholding on the 600 and 1200 will do what you need? For bright cut on the stoneset, handhold on the ceramic (dry) be closer to what you need.

Les

 

[Nathan Ott]

The problem is this: when engraving I like using a graver with a 15 degree heal. For stone setting, I'm used to using an unheeled graver. I'm not sure if there are stone setters who use healed gravers, but I was trained using a unheeled flat graver for removing material from a pave setting. Since im not making long passes with my graver or turing tight I don't need the lift.

Basically I need to polish the graver so I get a bright cut for pave, without giving the graver a heal. For some reason I'm finding this difficult with my power hone.
Apparently, this is also more difficult to explain than I thought. I think this may be one of those "new tool" issues, where I'm haviong trouble wrapping my mind around something simple, due to it's "newness". 8 years of doing something one way is harder to change than I thought.

 

[Kevin P.]

Nathan I believe you said you were using a 15° heel:
In your original post you said "I set the fixture at a 0 degree angle".

The post angle should be 15°; the head angle 0° if you're sharpening a flat.
Kevin P. (acknowledged beginner)

 

[jetta77]

Nathan, your not the first person to have trouble polishing the belly of a flat graver. The grs dual angle system can be kind of tricky to get dead flat and w the ceramic plate you'll have an even harder time trying to polish the whole belly. Rio Grande sells diamond abrasive papers made for the power hone that come in .5 and .1 micron that will work better than trying to use the ceramic wheel. The ceramic wheel is used primarily for puting a polish on the face and heel of a graver which is a much smaller area than the whole belly. Some engravers on here don't set stones so they don't know about using a graver w no heel, but then again putting a heel on the flat probably won't hurt either, just giving you a little lift...

Jeff

 

[KCSteve]

Nathan

Let's see if I understand this correctly: For your Pave setting you're trying for a graver with no heel - 0 degrees of lift, correct?

GemsetterChris noted that he was also trained to use a graver with no heel but has learned to use one with a heel without too much problem.

I'd think to polish the bottom of a flat at 0 degrees you'd want to have just the end of the graver on the disk which I would do by moving the dual-angle fixture further away from it.

 

[jimzim75]

Hi Nathan,
I'm a setter mostly. I use the heal on my tool for setting now. I use the Dual angle and the power hone. It can take a while to get onto how a new geometry is going to work.

The one thing about using a graver with no heal, is they will plunge into the metal.
Adding a heal simply makes the tool easier to push in a long line. I do a lot of bright
cutting around the stones. So, most often I will grind a graver with the 600 diamond
disc. Mine are worn in so they're not six hundred any more but finer. You could
get the same thing out of a 1200 disc. I use a ceramic disc charge with a
quarter micron spray, that I let dry. I use this for about three months before I clean
the disc and respray it again.

The ceramic will also grind a little. Enough to give you a mirror polish for bright cutting.
The final step is to charge a piece of leather with diamond spay and draw the
graver on it for a flawless edge. I polish all faces of the graver, including the heal.

I think you just need some time to play with the new system. Your hand will adjust
by itself after you switched the tools.

Talk to ya later,
Jim

 

[Gemsetterchris]

Nathan,
Wether you have a heel or not is a choice, both work fine it`s a case of getting the right cutting angle.
I used to polish flats (no heel) on very fine paper, you can also make the paper even finer by rubbing pencil lead over a section (this fills in the microscopic pores of the paper) and you can get really bright result.
As for polishing the face, don`t bother it just makes it hard to see the tool tip.
I only use a flat for bright cutting, any cutting of metal from beads i use a knife or onglette (no heel!)

I changed my ways after 20 years, also i set up a benchmate at the same time so i felt like my first day as an apprentice all over again! after half a day it felt like home.
You can`t beat a template or angling fixture for precision and since you can make up just about any shape tool from a square blank...i do.
Also you can sharpen up both ends to save wastage.

 

[Gemsetterchris]

Just to add Nathan, i spent the best part of an evening shaping and polishing a flat with heel using a template (lyndsay) and went to test it on a bright cut line.... nothing happened and i was like WHAT!
Anyway, by shaving along carefully and raising the angle it finally bit the metal and :yes

 

[qndrgnsdd]

Nathan I usually use my flats without heels, but I find if you wand that nice bright cut (we are talking bead and bright right?) you either have to polish the whole flat surface or put a heel on it. I have experimented and I find that even a tiny heel works like 1 or 2 degrees helps eleminate the tool "chatter" marks a gives you a nice bright cut. If you are used to no heel then make the heel as small as possible or you feel like you are learning a new art form

 

[Mike Cirelli]

Nathan check this out. For anything other than a square graver I would suggest doing this, http://www.igraver.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4215
It makes it so much more accurate and quicker when re-sharpening. I also use a very small mirrored heel on my flats when setting.

 

[Nathan Ott]

Thanks Mike,

Your reshaping grind eliminates quite a few of the problems I was having. I'm also trying to get used to using heeled gravers while setting. Do you use a 15 degree lift or a little less when you set? And do you use a radiused heel on your flat like Sam suggests?

 

[Mike Cirelli]

Nathan I used to use a 15 degree heel but I have been using a 12, 13 with better results. I don't radius the heel. I've tried it and it works but it's not for me. It does work great for sculpting though.