Suggestions/Help

[Biorka]

Hey Guys (and gals)
I am new to the forum. I have been engraving via the "hand push" graver method on gold and silver for about 20 years. I work primarily in the Tlingit Indian style of "totemic" designs, (I live on a very remote island in SE Alaska) I also do some wildlife designs with scroll work, stone setting etc...
My education applicable to the trade was as one of the last students of Alan Revere at the California College of Arts prior to him starting the Revere Institute of Goldsmithing. Alan was trained in Germany in traditional goldsmithing. My introduction to engraving was solely for stone setting, i.e. faceted stones in bright cuts and pave'. We spent weeks learning how to sharpen gravers by hand, yes, hand …no Crocker or GRS allowed. Just your hand and a stone. I have held to those "traditional" methods for all these years but now find myself having a harder time sharpening and find myself "breaking out" while engraving more often and ruining more stuff. Time to either quit, (and just fish) or move on.
I did some "surfing" and happened upon your site. I was blown away by the artistic quality, workmanship and detail that I saw. While at this stage in my life I expect never to achieve near the same quality and excellence I see on your site, I feel I must at least up-grade and modernize with hopes of improving and extending my great love of this craft/art for as long as possible…. Bla, bla ,bla ... get to the point!
The GRS sharpening system, and microscope seem to be a no brainer … but the big question… GRS or the Steve Lindsay graver System? I plan on sticking with my gold and silver (bread and butter) but do want the capability of doing some knives and or firearms if I get the urge, or want to be humbled.
What are the plusses and negatives of these two systems??
Thanks for any help or comments!
Barry

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Barry, we've had this question before on other forums and it tends to start 'tool wars' in that the guys who use Lindsay love it and those who use GRS love their system too. They both do the same job in that they assist the passage of graver through metal. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.

I personally use the GRS system and love it. The GraverMach is a vast improvement over the old Max and can take the Lindsay system on and cut equally as finely or as fast. The advantage of the GRS system is that the box controls the speed that means if I set something to cut at 3200 spm thats what I get softly or with a lot more power should I need it. There is no guess work. It is also very quiet, almost silent compared to the old Max and you can use any GRS handpiece with it. Also as a professional user of the equipment I know I have Glendo's back up. If it goes wrong I can get spares virtually instantaneously; I'm not dependant on one man who could be sick or on vacation when/if my machine goes wrong. So I'm potentially back on stream and working faster.

On the other hand there is no doubt that Steve Lindsay produces a fine tool. It only needs a compressor or air source to work so you don't need the control box. This makes the system highly portable. However,the downside is it is quite noisy in the hand as the speed increases with how hard you press the pedal, rather like a car's gas pedal. To me it sounds like an angry wasp, I tried it and didn't like it but that's not to say it would affect you in the same way. The disadvantage that a lot of engravers see is that to get more power you get more speed which is not always a good thing especially if hammering gold into an inlay or removing background or chequering a tough bolt handle on a rifle. You wouldn't use a Ferarri to do the job of a tractor which is what it can be likened to at times. The Lindsay also has the advantage of a palm control system so you don't need a foot pedal but it is quite expensive.

At the end of the day you pay your money and make your choice there are many fine engravers who push, use hammer and chisel, use GraverMach/Max and other fine engravers who use Lindsay. Neither is absolutely perfect and each has advantages and disadvantages. What you have to remember is that at the end of the day it is just a tool. It won't help you design any better or cut any better if you don't have those skills to begin with. It is computer assited but the computer it uses is the human brain!

I hope this helps and please everyone, let's not get into the old done to death arguments of my tool's better than yours.

cheers,
Marcus

On the other hand

 

[Ray Cover]

Barry,

I don't know if GRS has a trial period on their tools but it would be worth checking into. Since you live so far out it is going to be impossible for you to find someone in your area that has both tools so you can check them both out.

I know that Steve does offer a 45 day trial period on his tool. If you don't like it just send it back within 45 days for a refund. I have an idea that mail service where you are is probably via wondering caribou so I am sure Steve would work with you on that if slow delivery service bit into the 45 days.

I have found the folks at GRS to be reasonable to work with. Linda Shreck is the sales rep I work with when I need to order something for the school and she is always very pleasant and helpful. You should ask her if something can be worked out so you can try the GRS system.

I do encourage people to try both before buying if it is at all possible. Like Marcus said some folks strongly prefer one and others strongly prefer the other.

Ray

 

[Sam]

Greetings Barry, and welcome aboard. Browsing photos of engraving will show plenty of examples of world class work produced by both tools. You'll find users who prefer one over the other, and they will cite examples as to why. For my work, selectable stroke speed being independent from impact power is critical. Others prefer just the opposite.

Marcus and Ray have provided good advice, and I also recommend that you try both if possible. Ray told you what Steve's policy is. I'm not sure what GRS policy is regarding trial period, but I know Rio Grande (GRS dealer) ships all over the world and has a very liberal return policy (be sure to discuss that with them if you're interested).

Regardless of what tools you use, you'll find plenty of highly skilled, helpful engravers in the Cafe who will be willing to help you learn and become a better engraver. We're glad you found us, and welcome you to our growing community.

~Sam

 

[jacques herbst]

" I work primarily in the Tlingit Indian style of "totemic" designs" is it posible to post a few pics of your work so i can see what this style looks like please?

 

[jimzim75]

Hi Barry,
I would like to see some of your work also. In London, Ontario there is a shop devoted to first nation art.
There is one silver smith that uses Hyde totems as his inspiration. The bracelets are really nice work. Out in British
Columbia there are quite a few excellent artist in the historic tradition.

Hi J.C.,
I was over to visit Don Cowles and to see his shop. Don and his wife are really nice people by the way. He gave me the
tour of his knife making shop. It was really nice. I also got a few ideas for my own shop while I was there. Then he asked
if I'd like to try the Lindsay engravers he uses. If he only knew how long I have wanted to try these out. I saw them two years
ago on the net and have been wanting to try one ever since.He has a palm control and a foot control hand piece.
He got them idling and I tried them out. They make a little hissing noise, but I would expect that from any air driven tool.
I use gravemax in my own shop. The Lindsay has a different feel to it. It acetates into a cut using the palm graver.
It would be something I would have to get used to. I could use this tool system quite successfully. Being a tool head
I would just buy one and add it to the rest of the tool I like to use. I favor that sort of thing in all the type of work I do.
I use two torches, one natural gas and oxygen. The other acetylene and oxygen, just because they work well doing what
there best at. I think Don may be the same way because he had one band saw for metal and one for wood.
The part we differ on is his wife let's him have his engraving bench in the house. There is no way that happening here at
my house. I don't think Don's is as frenetic as I am in the shop.

I think both system have there strengths and one doesn't cancel out the other entirely. But if you have to make a choice
flip a coin. Either way you win.

 

[Biorka]

Thank you all very much for taking the time to reply with the very helpful and informative info.. I am hoping to go to the gem show and Rio Grande's Catalog in Motion in Tucson in February and will try the GRS system there. I am presently working on some new designs and will post when completed,as requested by Jim and Jacques.
Once again thanks much for the help!
Barry

 

[jacques herbst]

i must agree with jc on the airgraver.if the idle is set correctly there are no noise,i have to hold it to my ear to hear it idle.if jou want to see one working steave has some videos on his site.http://www.engravingschool.com/private/tut1.htm
he has allso made improvements with the Replaceable dead blow bore and optional tungsten piston.i like the lower power with short stroke setting and dont have the need for the tungsten piston.it is good to see people passionate about there tools,with ever one you pic i am sure you will be happy.

 

[jimzim75]

Who cares about this noise thing. The tool works really well. That what counts. I am more concerned
about how it feels in my hand and if its got the require power to do the job. Yes it does have the power.
Can the system stand alone as the only power system an engraver uses. Absolutely. My question is
what ya gonna do when the Chinese knock off both systems? Or maybe some inspired Canadian comes
up with a third system. Bell's telephone is a Canadian invention along the other Canadian inventions
like the calking gun and basket ball. How hard can it be to develop a new system? Maybe I run the thing
with maple syrup. There's a lot of energy in maple syrup, "A".

 

[Don Cowles]

Jim, I don't know what you heard in the way of an air hiss. The only thing I hear is when the tool is actually impacting, and that is just the sound of the graver cutting metal. The idle state is almost inaudible when properly set; just a slight vibration when the tool is held in the hand.

J.C., I not only have read the owner's manual; I helped to write it!

 

[jimzim75]

Hi Don,
I guess I'm just a sensitive guy, but I still think it's a awesome tool. I did happen to mention, I like the feel of it.
Nice balance, and it's shaped like a push graver. You guys are like a butch of motor heads when
someone says I think I heard a knock on a fully bored out dues coupe.
The real question is "does it go fast and can I take it for a ride"?

 

[Mike Cirelli]

I have never used the Lindsay tool. I have heard a lot of good by the users. I use a gravermax w/air control valve, monarch & 901 hand pieces. I'm very satisfied with the performance when setting and engraving. It makes bead, flattop, and bezel setting almost effortless. Setting in these styles are done in a third of the time for me compared without air assist. Before getting the air control valve and new pedal there was a slight problem with the graver jump starting, I don't have that problem now. I had to do a bezel setting job over Christmas in a gents 10k ring, broke out the hammer hand piece I really needed some intense hammering and it came through for me. It pushed the metal like nothing else on my bench except my big hammer. I also think the a small plus is the high speed hand piece hooked up and ready to go when needed in the same system.
Even if you don't get an air assist system, you will not regret getting a power hone with the dual angle fixture. I have been using mine for over 20 years. I think Don Glasser made mine in the garage and was selling them to Gesswien
Someone else may be able to enlighten you on the Lindsay tool for stone setting.
Good luck
Mike

 

[Don Cowles]

j.c., you just beat me to it. You were right on.

 

[jimzim75]

Okay, I bite. So if the air doesn't come out. Where does it go? Into the alternate universe? Besides what's wrong with
the air coming out. I let the air out regularly and I think that's healthy. If your suggesting that the air is entirely change
to energy, then think how much happier you'll be with the new maple leaf special that runs on high octane maple syrup. A lot more energy in cm square of maple syrup than the same amount of air.

I realize all you guys just want to think deep thoughts and engrave in total
silence. I turn on the radio. To much silence is spooky.

 

[Lee]

In my neck of the woods the only thing that comes close to this ocassional "tool wars" debate is 3 cowboys/farmers yelling Ford and Chevy at each other or is that Bud and Miller. Less filling......tastes great. Now I'm getting confused. Must be getting old.

 

[JoeCera]

Im not one to debate over
these tools .There is an easy solution.
I own both systems.It just depends on what your
going to do with them Engrave Or Set Stones.
In comparison One is like a sports car fast and smooth &
one is like a Diesel Engine alot of torch but still smooth.
Joe Cera

 

[Peter E]

Hey Jim...I think it could get pricey running on Maple syrup...maybe it will work with Aunt Jemima! I prefer my real Maple syrup on my pancakes!

Cheers,
Peter

 

[FANCYGUN]

The easiest way for anyone to settle this in their own minds would be to try both systems. GRS and Lindsay will be set up at the FEGA annual meeting and show in Reno in a few weeks. That's also the weekend before the Gem show in Tucson so if your traveling down from Alaska it is not out of the realm of possibilities to stop over and try both and ask a lot of questions

 

[jimzim75]

Hi Peter,

Well I didn't want to let this out before the big show but we changed the
energy source to Canadian Beer. You can buy two fours, or rather a case
of individual propellants for around thirty bucks, "A".
Happy engraving.

 

[FANCYGUN]

Hhmmmmmmmm beer can be a good thing..just as long as it's not Coors or Bud Lite