Winchester '73 Restoration Question

[Christopher Malouf]

Well, I got a '73 Winchester which is in pretty darn good shape. Got it from Ron Nott a couple of weeks ago ... thank you Ron!!

It's gonna be the canvas for a big Biblical project I'm working on and I'd like to ask those that have restored these in the past for engraving for any advice they may have. I would like to do as much as I can myself so it's ready for engraving when I need it. My gunsmith is soooo backed up.

1. It needs all new screws and I can't seem to locate any originals. Are modern replacement screws ok?

2. I'd also like to do all new wood. Some select walnut will be nice (my gunmaker buddy can help me with this). The forend has a few chips in it and the stock is near perfect. Should I restore the original wood or replace it with better stuff?

3. The barrel is octagonal and will need to be draw filed. Looks like somone removed the barrel about a hundred years ago and the wrench slipped on one of the visible flats. The Winchester stamped markings are good but draw filing them will most likely remove them. Is deepening these stamp markings (by engraving) acceptable?

4. Also ... the mechanical workings are perfect and the toggle link is tight so I don't think there's anything I need to do inside except repair or replace the dust cover catch.

I'm a bit finicky about keeping old stuff like this as original as possible ... just don't know how much "replacement" is acceptable. As soon as I get some 32-20 cowboy rounds for this baby and give her a try, it's gonna be taken apart at my buddy's shop.

Thank-you in advance,

Chris

 

[Yves Halliburton]

parts

http://www.chasjonesgunparts.citymax.com/page/page/541489.htm carries all of the screws in new form. They also have the dust cover spring. Treebone carving and Wenig gunstocks can do the wood, rough cut that is.

 

[dclevinger]

Chris,

It sounds like this one will be a heck of a fun project!!!

IMHO Since you're engraving it and it will no longer be "original", the replacement screws should be just fine. If it's in the budget, I'd go ahead and upgrade to wood as well. You're putting all the effort into the engraving so you might as well make it a complete package. Ray Phillips probably has the proof mark stamps but I would think that re-cutting them would be just fine.

Have fun man. Keep us posted.

David

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Thank-you Yves ... for updating the link too That site is a gold mine. Rough cut is fine for the stock. Hopefully I can get the forend inletted.



Hi David,

I think you're right. What's a few screws after it's been engraved. At any rate ... I'll set my obsessive compulsive energy on this project and it'll be worth more than it is in it's present state. Upgrading the wood is a must. Just wanna get it right.

It's a doosie of a project alright ... as if I ain't got enough irons in the fire.

Thanks my friend.

Chris

 

[Big-Un]

Chris, you say it will be engraved in a Biblical theme...any thoughts on what will be done to it.....for us curious types.

Bill

 

[ron p. nott]

hi Chris .. my gun smith can replace any lettering to original if you need it .. ron p

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Hi Ron, your guy is real good. I'm definitely going to use him on this project. Thanks for everything Ron.

---

Bill, I've given this a lot of thought and have had this idea on my mind for over a year now. I'm just finally getting the skills together to where I think I can pull it off. As the artwork comes together, I'll post part of it ... it is from Revelations.

Chris

 

[Ron Smith]

How is the barrel? If you are able to get enough money for the project, I would say go all the way unless you need the money right away for your time. Since you are going to destroy the originality of it anyway, the value will be in the engraving. If this is an out on a limb piece (your best, most creative work), It will pay off about as well by displaying it if you go to shows. It will help your reputation. I don't know what kind of following you have, but in the long run you have it for display until it sells. On the other hand it is good to keep your display as current as possible so people can see your improvement too, which means that you should always have a current, recent piece to show. These "special" jobs where you are allowed to stretch your creativity, and take the time to do that, might put it over the heads of the people you are used to dealing with. They (special pieces)usually require a bit of a sacrifice. Me not being familiar with your status and client quality in the circles you are known, that is the trouble with a creative engraver and is the frustrating part of the game. These pieces usually cost the engraver, unless you have someone in the wings chomping at the bit without consideration of cost, but I look at it this way. If you don't show people what you are capable of, you don't move forward very fast. You have to knock their lights out once in a while and they will remember you.

Chris, you are experienced enough that you probably already know these things, but in case you don't, just a little information that might help you and others on the business end of things. This commentary was the way it was as I was coming along. There is a lot more awareness now-a-days and it might be easier now.

Can't wait to see it! Rock on, buddy!
Ron S

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Ron, I'd like to thank you for responding. I was looking forward to you weighing in on this.

The barrel is very good except for the damage near the frame. Most likely done with a wrench that slipped on the flats. I won't know for sure if it's a wrench until I take the forend off and check the opposite flat. The bore is excellent. Not a whole lot of metal work ... just some light pitting on the right side plate. This thing is gem and Ron Nott is really a good friend for parting with it. The one condition he gave me was that I put this idea on it.

This is a 100% "out on a limb peice" but anything I buy as an investment always is. I consider gun engraving to be a long term endeavor and my experience so far has told me to pace myself slowly and learn that area of expertise properly before going "commercial". You only get one shot at a first impression and so far I've had no complaints (that I've heard anyway) on the work I've completed. Until that time, I take in parts and small jobs at my gunsmith's shop. If demand warrants, I'll shift more time into it and spend more time there. For now, I'm here in West Virginia for the peace and solitude I deserve after burning out in my last career. I won't allow that to happen again. This project is for the personal challenge, to better my skills and comfort level with this segment of the business. The bulk of my business comes from jewelry and for the first time in two years I'm getting back into motorcycles. Diversify, diversify diversify!! My overhead is ultra low so funding a project like this over many months is not too much of an issue. As for a "following", I'm getting known locally but most people have only heard of me cause they don't ever see me. When I do go to a local show, there's always a couple of guys (always the same guys) that want to see what I got. I find that very flattering. Having a few things like this rifle, or a Colt I got for myself too will be nice to have sitting on a table in front of me.

You hit the nail on the head in regard to showing folks what I can accomplish. I've posted a couple of stuff on the FEGA forum in the past and a trigger guard and floorplate in the gallery here but getting paid for stuff like that is few and far between for a relatively unknown new guy like myself. Breaking away from the mundane once in awhile sometimes means I gotta commission myself. Commisioning myself also means I can take my time and not stress out. I'd rather do that than wait on my buddy to finish the next custom rifle. We do work well together and the last rifle he built that I engraved sits in his shop. It sure has been a great selling point. I guess as long as the owner's wife doesn't find out about it and how much he spent on it it'll stay at the shop!! haha!!

That more or less lays out some insight into my career strategy as well as the reason behind this project. So long as I don't forget why I'm here in the mountains, I'll succeed.

Thanks again Ron. I look forward to sharing this as it comes together.

Chris

 

[JJ Roberts]

Chris,
I have been restoring the screw heads myself...if they were really buggered up I would tigweld the slots closed..file the screw head back in shape and recut the slot, but I like the web site Yves shared with us. Ron Smith had some good advice to get your name out there..here is another suggestion..join some gun organizations..here is a list of a few I belong to:
American Long Rifles Assoc
Bull Run Muzzle Loaders
FEGA
German Gun Collector's
L.C. Smith Collector's
NRA
VA Firearms Collector's
Parker Collector's Assoc.

When I go to a gunshow I carry a sample case with my work, and I get stopped and asked what is in the case? They think I have a gun for sale. I open the sale, and then hand them a business card...Ken Hurst gave me this idea and it works well. You have to market yourself...if you don't do it no one else will. Keep up the good work.

 

[JTR]

I hate to be the only dissenting voice here, although not on your ambition to display your ability, but only on the use of a “pretty darn good shape” old Winchester as the canvas.
With all the high quality reproductions available now, what’s the point in using an original rifle?
With your plan to draw file the barrel, re-cut the lettering, replace the screws, replace the stock, and necessarily re-blue the steel, from a collectors point of view the gun will have no value what so ever.
As far as it being worth more when you finish it than it is now, that will be solely dependent on the quality of the engraving. And with the addition of engraving, it will be worth even less than nothing to a Winchester collector and simply be judged as a ruined rifle.
Just from my 2 cent collectors point of view, why not just enjoy the ol thang for what it is, take it out and shoot it, hang it up on the wall or what ever, and use a high quality reproduction that you’ll actually enhance for you canvas.
John

 

[Christopher Malouf]

JJ, thanks for the list. I need to get to some bigger shows. That's a great idea about the screws. I've got abook that details screw restoration but illustrates replacing the entire head of the screw .... not fun. Since the general concensus here is that originality will be gone anyway, I'll just see what I can dig up on Yves site.


John, dissenting is good and appreciated but here are my thoughts ...

I'm not cutting on a "1 of a thousand", an original Henry or re-engraving a factory engraved Winchester.

I've engraved replicas and no matter how much coverage I put into the thing, it's still a replica. (notthatthereisanythingwrongwiththat)

Wanna buy a Rossi 1892? I'll be real lucky if I can even recover the time I put into it. I hear it over and over again ... it ain't a Winchester. At least I'll have another item on my table to display my work. Of course I could always engrave an anchor too.

I happened to get this '73 for not much more than a Uberti replica. Why put a ton of time and precious metals into a replica when I can put it into the real deal and hang that on my wall. Don't get me wrong, I was gonna until this came along.

(for anyone wondering ... this is the botched color case job I mentioned in another thread a few weeks ago. There wasn't a whole lotta color but by taking the black off it actually came out pretty good.)

Regards,
Chris

 

[JTR]

Chris,
As I said, just my 2 cents.
I'm sure you'll do a grand job of it, and look forward to seeing the finished prooduct!
John

 

[Christopher Malouf]

I know John, thank-you. I wasn't trying to go over the top in my reply (it does kinda read that way though) and no offense intended. My apologies for sounding like some sort of snob. I am very grateful for your honest opinion. That's the only kind of opinion I respect and am interested in.

Chris

 

[Andrew Biggs]

A bit like Captain Cook's original axe...........the handle has been replaced 3 times and the head twice. But it's still Captain Cook's axe!!!

Really interesting thread and raises a whole lot of issues as to the type of thing we engrave. Particulary how our potential customers also view things.

The same amount of engraving work can go into a replica or an original. After a while what we engrave on becomes as important as what we engrave.

It's also the same with other metals and jewellery. When you engrave on gold or silver it becomes more valuable than engraving on steel. Engraving on an expensive knife rather than a cheap knife etc. etc. If you engrave an 18k gold pendant than you should get a lot more money for your effort than if the same was done on steel. More than just the cost difference between the steel and gold.

There are all sorts of markets and people out there and they all have different agendas. I guess it's a matter of finding the customer base that suits the individual. The customers and trends can be really fickle even on a good day.


Cheers
Andrew

 

[Roger Bleile]

Take a look at the work Doug Turnbull Restorations does all on original Winchesters, Colts, etc. Gun collectors are beginning to look at things more like antique car collectors. Fully restored Dusenbergs can bring over $1,000,000.00 because there are virtually no unrestored ones to buy. As most of the high condition antique guns demand huge prices and are ending up in museums there are many collectors happy to have a beautifully restored gun. I am aware, by many years of experience, that there are collectors who would rather have a Colt that looks like it was dug up from the bottom of a riverbed than one that has been properly restored and engraved. People with this attitude will never be our patrons so I am not the least interested in their reaction to my work. I have been commissioned to engrave modern Smith & Wessons which were made in the thousands (if not in the millions) to have one of these pureists tell me that I had ruined the originality of the gun. I repeat, none of these purists have ever paid me to engrave anything. The only exception is when they come to me and try to get me to fake some proof mark (which I won't do) so their Luger or whatever will be worth ten times as much to the other purists.

I shoot a Uberti 66 carbine, that I fully engraved, in the SASS matches. I get lots of positive comments about how great it looks from the other shooters but it would be very difficult to sell it for the time and effort I put into it. That is not why I did it. As a shooter it is great and I can get replacement parts easily while serving as a show piece. If I were doing a "spec" job on this type of gun it would only be on a real Winchester like Chris is doing. Having a good bore is important.

Please excuse the rant if anyone finds it offensive but I have been going to gun shows for 40 years and find that the purists are living in a different world from me and rarely appreciate any custom work on a gun while swooning over inferior, obviously rushed engraving because it is "factory." My attitude on this subject was developed from years of sitting behind my gun show table and having these purists look at a gun on my table and ask "is that factory" and when I responded that it was my custom work, see the inquisitor raise his nose as if sniffing a noxious odor and march off down the asile without another word. Worse yet, the guy who snatched a revolver from my table and after asking the "is it factory" question dropped the gun onto the table as if it were a poisonous snake after I told him that I had engraved it.

Those of you who have done lots of gun shows will know exactly what I am writing about. It makes me appreciate the custom knife realm where there is no "factory" issue.

Roger

 

[JTR]

Chris, No sweat, and no offense taken at all. Just differing points of view, and as I said, I’ll still be most interested to see what you do with the ol thang.
And to all, I guess I should say that I didn’t mean to ruffle any feathers here with my comments! Lot’s of people have lot’s of views on restoration and not everyone agrees, to say the least.
As for me, I’m an avid collector, not of Colts or Winchesters, but Kentucky rifles instead. And one of the things I enjoy most about it, is buying clunker rifles in need of some TLC, and restoring them, so I’m hardly a snoot regarding restoration. Although restoring a kentucky is more blending your work in with the original, to be as invisable as possible. And my lousy engraving fits right in when a lost inlay needs to be replaced and engraved, because most of the old guys were pretty poor engravers.
So nuff said, and back to Chris’ rifle.
John

 

[ron p. nott]

hi Chris .. if you ever need help on this project you know i will lend a helping hand also you know where i live , just drop in and i will give you all the help and advise that you need .. ron p

 

[Ron Smith]

Right on!, ride on Roger. Like you, been there done all of that. After all, we are selling art, not guns, and I consider that far more important than the argument with the purists. I prefer to create history and learn from it rather than get hung up in it, and some of the old myths die hard. But don't get me wrong, I love history too, and I cherish the old guns. I think all of us do. That is also why I engrave them, cause it is a shame to let something go to the dogs. And beautiful things inspire more than rust and rot. Things fade away unless you keep renewing their purpose and giving them new life and new purpose.......... including man.

I personally think it brings honor to a fine old creation to bring it back to life if you can, but then that is just my opinion and two cents on the subject.

Forward!
Ron S

 

[Christopher Malouf]

I am really happy with the way this discussion has evolved. I have a tendency to second guess ... the arguments from both sides of the street can be very convincing. I have chosen wisely. This forum truly motivates.

Roger & Ron ... great posts!! One thing these replicas are really great for are trying something a little different. I wanted to try a variation of the American scroll illustrated in Ron's advanced book. I also wanted to increase my engraving speed.

Ron P. You know I'm gonna bug the crap out of you, don't you? Haha!!

Hey Andrew, There is also the issue of notoriety. If Picasso painted on a peice of scrap iron, it would still fetch tons o' money and then there would be a shortage of scrap iron.

Thank you all,

Chris