Winchester '73 Restoration Question

Yves Halliburton

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Chris, Ron has it right. Just think of what the Winchester 1873 would be worth if Ron never engraved the one at the FEGA show. Not even close to what it went for. Furthermore, the value original winchester's to me only comes into play when it is in near perfect shape, with documentation and proof that no parts have been changed. And/or it is from someone famous or engraved. This is a rarety and usually beyond any of our financial capabilities. So when you find one that is in good shape but still needs work, go do it. I have yet to find an 1873 with the dust cover spring not busted. I always replace all the screws and springs. I hope the purist do not know about Albert Buckingham as he has hundreds of 1873's that he has stripped and parted out. So, go to work and enjoy enhancing a great piece of history. As a last thought, I love these old guns and shoot all the ones I have. 1873, 85, 92, 94, 95 etc. I am in the beginining stages of restoring "to shoot" an 1885 Highwall with a #4 heavy barrel, close coupled double set trigs, pistol grip. Other than the special exceptions, I do not have any wall hangers.
 

FANCYGUN

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I will never work on a 1873 that is in really good collector condition. They deserve the dignity of staying that way as a record of past history.
I have and will work on a rifle that needs major or almost major help and consider it restoring it to some sort of dignity.
One important point that i think is being overlooked here. While an engraver in the class of Ron Smith and a few others can enhance an old rifle, I have seen too many that have been destroyed by poor engraving and gunsmithing. While the rifle will no longer have original collector value no matter who engraves it, we should at least try to give it an honored artistic place in history if we choose this route.
In short. work on a replica until you feel your skills will enhance the gun.
 

Roger Bleile

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One important point that i think is being overlooked here. While an engraver in the class of Ron Smith and a few others can enhance an old rifle, I have seen too many that have been destroyed by poor engraving and gunsmithing.

Good point Marty. I will add to that what I hate to see most on these fine old guns is the faked Nimschke engraving on so many of them. I am not speaking of work done in a style reminescent of Nimschke and signed by the engraver but outright fakes down to the LDN initials. I have mentioned this here before but every time I go to a major gun show I see these fakes. They are usually on a table of someone who specializes in antique American guns. Someone who should know better and probably does.

Roger Bleile
 

Ron Smith

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Very good point Marty! Certainly the value of any restored piece would be relative the stature of the artist and his/her reputation. I also would not personally tinker with a nice winchester if it hasn't usually already been tinkered with. Someone had already begun to restore that last one I did, so it was a prime subject and potential canvas.

Until one is capable of demanding a good price for his work, Nimschke styles will allow you to make money on these large frame guns, but counterfeiting is not usually done by reputable engravers.

Until then, It would be wise to put your work on the replicas as Marty said, and remain simple in style and time requirements.

I think most of these guys (SASS) are more interested in shooting than an engraved masterpiece anyway. Would that be correct Roger?
 

Roger Bleile

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.

I think most of these guys (SASS) are more interested in shooting than an engraved masterpiece anyway. Would that be correct Roger?

Correct Ron. Most SASS shooters have a relatively low price threshold compared to clay pigeon shooters and the advanced collectors who specialize in what I call museum quality work. Marty and Yves Halliburton probably know the SASS market better than I do. I just work on my own guns and shoot in the competitions.

RB
 

Christopher Malouf

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This is not a short term investment in either time or money .... Nor is it an introduction to the perpretrating of a fraud.

If there is any particular area of this project that requires my skill level to catch up, then this project will remain on hold until that time.

I have a Uberti 1858 Remington revolver conversion which I am engraving for my own personal amusement. I am finished with replicas for any other personal endeavor. I don't put the heart into them simply because they are what they are and always will be. They are, in essence, fraudulent in their very existence and that's where fake LDN work belongs. The word fraudulent may be a strong term but it is what it is. I use the term "amusement" as well simply because these replicas give some of us the ability to step back in time and enjoy a place we would sometimes (most of the time) rather be. It's merely a tool for achieving that form of entertainment ... a "prop" if you will.

I refer to:

Roger's post #16
Ron Smith's post #19
Yves' post #21

These posts are great posts not because they are what I want to hear, but because they are both correct as well as either optimistic or realistic. Yves' post in particular.

There are those that "think" they are good enough and ultimately destroy a piece of history. Those individuals suffer from a false sense of reality. We've all wrecked some stuff at one time or another. I am a realist and sometimes a pessimist so when I go out on a limb, it's because I like the odds. It's just about time to replace the "rust and rot" with a wonderful theme that will bring enjoyment.

Marty, whether the finished product is award winning material or not, or it doesn't fetch as much money is moot ... I compete with only myself and I will enhance this old rifle.



Regards,

Chris
 
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ron p. nott

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hi Chris .. your rifle doesn't fall into the category that Marty and others are talking about ,all thou it is not a wreck but it is a very good canvas for your engraving and i know you are capable of doing a great job on this old relic , i myself bought this rifle with the intention of engraving it , i am an antique gun collector from way back and i would not destroy an old gun that should keep the history of the past , so Chris i do think that you should peruse this project and if you need help on it you know you can depend on me for it .. ron p
 

FANCYGUN

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It's funny when you collect, restore and engrave some of the old guns for yourself. What criteria makes you decide weather to restore for originality sake or restore for engraving purposes? I suppose its the mental mood of the time and wether the restored rifle has any redeeming collector rarity such as factory options. You also scour the gun shows for parts to stick in the drawer just in case you should need something down the road. You have even been known to "engrave for parts".
Those of you that know me know I have a "weakness" for 1873 and 1876 Winchesters and over the years have restored them for my own collection and to sometimes even engrave them. As a collector, it seems the best way to get a good gun at a good price. To get a gun that the purist collector doesnt want because they dont have the skill or knowledge to tweek the gun back to originality. This is what makes the whole collecting/engraving scene fun for me.
At the moment I have 4 rifles in various stages or restoration. One will be engraved. It will not letter in the configuration I am restoring to, but as an engraving canvas I really don't care. It is a 3rd model rifle with a set trigger and it will have a 30 inch octagon barrel that has been restored on the outside and sleeved. I started with a complete receiver that I am not sure where I even got it from over the years.
The other 3 will be restored to their original configuration since the are a little more desirable as they originally were.

Roger........I shoot in SASS a repro Henry rifle in 44-40 that i engraved years ago. I am even thinking of going to a repro 73 just to beat the daylights out of and not care as i shoot and abuse.
I haven't fond the SASS shooters to be a good market for engraving as i cost too much for what they want. It seems most of them want full coverage for $300 and a return time of 2-3 weeks. Can't do that.

Chris. if you think your skills are up to the task then go for it. From what I saw of your posted 92, you should do a fine job. I would restock it with fancy d to compliment the engraving and take your time with careful metal preparation. Get your edges straight and sharp. Good Luck
 

Christopher Malouf

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It's all good Marty. Thank-you for commenting on the '92. It is far from what I am capable of though as I kinda "speed graved" it to simply add a couple of bucks (or at least as much a Rossi can get) to its' resale.

I'll be posting an L.W. Seecamp pistol here soon. It'll be my latest as far as scroll design. I would've been finished by now but it's made of the same stuff of whatever crashed in Roswell 60 years ago.

Well, it's time to put on some Vivaldi and get to work.

Looking forward to seeing another one of your masterpieces.

Chris
 
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dclevinger

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Marty is a walking encyclopedia when it comes to '73 and '76 Winchesters. I learned more about them in a hour with him than I have in years of being around guns.

Chris....Vivaldi?!!!! I knew there was a reason why we get along. The baby already has two Vivaldi CD's of her own. Looking forward to pics of the Seecamp.
 

Roger Bleile

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Well, it's time to put on some Vivaldi and get to work.
Chris

Another Vivaldi fan! I like to listen to country music and blue grass when I'm driving around in my truck but when it comes to background music while enraving or designing Vivaldi and the other Baroque masters are the best. Baroque chamber music is like scrollwork for the ear.

RB
 
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FANCYGUN

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David
I did pick up a new "toy" in Denver on sunday morning......It's a 2nd model 73 with a 1/2 rd/oct barrel with a full magazine. A very rare variation that needs some TLC help. Right up my alley.
 

Christopher Malouf

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Vivaldi, Mozart for those "Pale Horse" moods, and when things get a bit mundane ... Yngwie Malmsteen.

David, I think that has something to do being a "sophisticated" biker. (Not the credit card, weekend warrior enthusiast either.)

Hey Roger ... to listen to anything but Country in your pickup truck in a red state would be uncivilized. Ha!!

Catch y'all later guys.
 
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ron p. nott

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Chris .. before you start cutting on that 73 study some of Marty's and Ron's work on there 73 , this will give you some good ideas on lay out and design .. ron p
 

FL-Flinter

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Chris,

I'll second Roger's post #16 as well, especially the last two paragraphs.

I love a good lever gun but I don't love 'em enough to pay the prices they're trying to get with them these days. Unless that '73 is something very rare, it's yours and if engraving it and restocking it make you happy, by all means sir, have at it!

If you try to please everyone else, you'll never be happy yourself for you are the only one you need to please and if you're happy with it, others will be too.
 

Christopher Malouf

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Much appreciated flinter. Thank-you.

You're exactly right . This wasn't intended to be a discussion about whether I am good enough to engrave it but where to begin with the restoration.

It is mine and maybe I'll engrave it or maybe I'll put it through the wood chipper.

I've got time to practice bank note engraving techniques while I take my time to do a proper restocking and restoration. Now I've got a reason to venture out of the holler here and visit the one and only Chris DeCamilis for a couple of days of private instruction in Bulino.

You hit the nail on the head buddy!! Love the quotes too ... we're definitely on the same side there.

"None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." -- John Milton
 
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Ron Smith

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I second flinters last remark, and I will assure you that all of us will be happy with it and support you all the way. I approached my winchester with the attitude that I wanted to make it the best I could. Cost was not a consideration and under that criteria, only the final product was important.

These are decisions that only you can make, and how much you are willing to sacrifice for it to be the best it can be. These types of projects are labors of love and passion. Need I say more?

Can't wait to see the results because I know how excited you are about it, and that is a powerful force behind the work.
Knock 'em dead buddy!
Ron S
 

joseph engraver

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Cristopher,after reading these posts and your responses, I believe that you have the will do a creditable job on your 73.
Do as you say and take your time to do the studying needed. You can make the pipe wrench marks dissapear if you do a good job of inlaying soft iron wire into the marks. In my opinion there are only two guns that collectors show a interest in, with after market engraving: Colts and Winchesters. The engraving has to be excelent and you have to become recognized, in order to sell. Not an easy task but not impossible.
 
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