Winchester Model 70 Floor Plate

[Tira]

I've been asked to do a floor plate and trigger guard for a Winchester Model 70 that is made of stainless steel. I've looked on the internet and have not been able to determine what type of stainless these parts are made of. Does anyone know how difficult (hard) this type of floor plate/trigger guard is to engrave?

Also, the floor plate and trigger guard have been bead blasted to a satin finish. I've never worked with a satin finish. I'm assuming you can't do much sanding (if any) without messing up the satin look. What is the standard proceedure for this finish? Do I engrave it and send it out to be bead blasted again? Any help with these issues would be very much appreciated. I haven't committed to the project yet and want to know what I'm getting into.

Thanks

 

[Tim Wells]

From what I have read on various posts the really hard parts of a Model 70 are the reciever and bolt knob. They say they're harder than chinese arithmatic. So are Ruger Red Label shotguns.

I think the floorplate should be fine without annealing and the blasting you could do yourself with a Paasche (don't know if that's spelled right) air eraser. Just lay scotch magic tape over the scroll or whatever you want to protect and cut the outine with a blade and blast it with one of those Air erasers. It looks like an airbrush that aprays different grits of media that you can get. I'll try to find a link to the place I bought mine and post it if it turns up.

Some experienced engraver will chime in soon as there are a blue million floorplates that have been done.

 

[Sam]

I'm not sure about the hardness...when the FEGA group returns you'll get some advice on that. As far as the finish goes, I would expect a bead blasted finish to be less than perfect when I finished the engraving, since there could be some light deburring after cutting. You might want to block sand to a satin finish first, engrave, then debur and keep a satin finish. If it must be beadblasted again, then the Paasche Air Eraser that Tim mentioned can do the job. Maybe someone can recommend a source for glass beads that are small enough to feed through the air eraser. The ones I have were given to me years ago and I have no idea what size they are.

Hand held air erasers have a pretty small spray size, and sometimes it can be tricky to maintain a smooth finish on a larger object. A larger spray would be better for a floor plate I think, but I'd use the air eraser because that's all I have here. I would never send something out to be blasted unless it was to another engraver who would know exactly how to handle it and not ruin the engraving.

 

[Sam]

Incidentally, if you look at Tira's avatar you will notice that she's no longer a Cafe moderator. I've extended full administrator privleges to her. She shares the same vision I have for a forum based on the free sharing of information, and it's comforting to know that the Cafe is in her capable hands when I can't be here. Thank you Tira!

 

[LRB]

I found years back, that one can come pretty close to matching, and blending a bead finish by lightly hammering on a piece of wet/dry automotive sand paper of the right grit size. You would have to experiment a little to get the grit that matches best, but it does work.

 

[KSnyder]

Tira, I doubt if the floorplate is very hard as it doesn't need to be. It only houses a spring to feed cartridges so I doubt the manufacturer would lay out big cash for exotic stainless.Maybe you can cut a small line on the underside of the floorplate to test.
I've done a bit of bead blasting where i worked before and I would think you could lay out the design & cut it with very little clean up.
With your skill level it shouldn't be any problem.
If you bead blast it(the engraved surface) again it will ruin it I would guess. It would cut through tape over the design like crap through a goose . I've used both sand & glass beads and its not very forgiving.
sounds like the air eraser might be the way to go if needed at all.
my $.02

 

[Big-Un]

The composition of stainless can be tricky sometimes, and not all stainless is true stainless. Use a magnet to see if has any added metal to it; the more the magnet sticks, the more other metal has been added. It's similar to a stainless steel appliance. The ones made with "good" stainless will not hold the usual household treasures with the cutesy magnets.

 

[Tim Wells]

Tira,
Here is what you're looking for. I blasted something once while it was in my ball vise. I had to dissassemble it and clean all that out. Don't make my mistake and don't be fooled into thinking that since it's just a little airbrush that it don't put out much product. It'll look like one of those middle eastern sandstorms went through there. This is where I got mine.

http://www.dixieart.com/AirEraser.html

 

[Mike Cirelli]

If you blast it after your done, not your engraving. Maybe background or outside edge. There is a clear duct available that makes it possible to trim around your engraving. It holds up and sticks better than regular scotch tape, which would allow you to crank up the presure to blast it a bit harder without blowing off the mask.
Just a thought
Mike

 

[Ken Hurst]

Tira, many tears ago I found that filling the engraving with melted bees wax worked very well. It stood up against sand blasting. You will have to first scrape the surface clean of wax --- I used a plastic credit card. Remove wax after finished glass beading by soaking in slovent/thinner --- wax will desolve. Ken

 

[fegarex]

I'm going to put my 2 cents in here. I've done a bunch of rifle floorplates/trigger guards over the years, but I really can't remember if any of them were Winchester "stainless". What I can tell you is that you better make sure what you have first. Some of the so called "stainless steel" guns may have a stainless barrel but many of the other parts are merely alloy or plated steel parts. You may in fact find that the trigger guard is made from an alloy. Then there are Browning A-Bolt rifles. They have a nice blued finish on them. You check it with a magnet and it will stick, so you decided to remove the factory engraving. Suddenly you find that the plate was a flash plated alloy guard. Do some serious checking on the guns before you dive too deep. As far as the bead blast/sand blast finish, about the only way you are going to end up with anything decent it to hand finish it to a nice 400-600 grit. The air eraser or low pressure bead blasting will not match the rest anyhow and will mess up shading. You are better off leaving a "brushed" finish. It will match fairly decent and the engraving will look better. You will see many firearms with a blue action/barrel and a grey or stainless trigger guard. A variation in finish isn't that big of a thing. The stainless is a crap shoot anyhow. Once they mount a scope with nickle plated mounts and an anodized scope you have all kinds of finishes and colors anyhow.

 

[Tira]

Thanks for all the help. I'm still at the beginning of the gun engraving path. I do have a couple of further questions.

What does checking with the magnet tell you? How much iron/alloy is in the metal? Do you want it to stick or not? How does this help you determine what to do?

With the bead blasted finish... Can it be cut through the finish? Is it the collective opinion that the finish will be too distracting or cause a loss of detail in the final engraving? It sounds like the counsel here is to re-finish the part (block sand) before engraving. Any idea how much time would be involved with that? I've only done a couple of guns and they haven't involved that level of metal prep.

I never considered the parts would be plated. I deal with chrome all the time with motorcycles and it can certainly be a pain. How do you tell? Do you make a small cut on the underside and see what happens? Is there a reference on guns and their parts available so one can know what they are in for before the fatefull first chip? Or is this just part of the "live and learn" info that takes a lifetime to collect?

The bead blasting was put on the gun by a gunsmith after the gun made it through a house fire. It was about the only object that made it because it was in a gun safe. The stock was wrecked and replaced; the metal parts were bead blasted.

Thanks again for the help. I'm sure these questions are mundane to some of you, but I appreciate your patience.

 

[fegarex]

Tira,
The magnet usually tells you if the part has an higher iron content in the stainless which is usually decent to engrave or it tells you if it is an alloy. As I stated, it doesn't always tell the truth. My advice would be to "buddy up" with a decent gunsmith in your area. They may be able to answer questions, do the required finishing/refinishing and sometimes difficult disassembly of firearms. I've dealt with firearms all my life and some of the new stuff coming out even fools me. You can't get much out of the gun companies either. Its a "live and learn" on many items as you say. I would consult the gunsmith that worked on the gun. He may be able to do the finishing you need and advise you what type of metal you have.

 

[KSnyder]

Tira, for the block sanding portion I would carefully draw file & then block sand. You may find the block sanding a bit more tedious than planned to get a nice level finish.
If a magnet goes to it , it has ferrous metals/ alloy in it, ie. some form of iron.
Like Rex said, there are many stainless alloys these days. I worked quite a bit with 416 & 411 for aircraft ignitors, I don't believe a magnet stuck to it.
I ditto what Rex also said about the gunsmith, he will likely be willing & able to help you with the project.
good luck and lets see it when you're done if you take the job.
Kent

 

[Glenn]

Tira,
Another possibility is to contact a man named Glen Jensen who is the historian for Browning (Winchester). He is a very knowledgeable man whom I've talked to many times. I think he can tell you exactly what the material make up is.

 

[Mike Bissell]

Tira - For only giving two cents worth of advice. Fegarex gave you some sound information. I agree in what he said totally.

Mike

 

[monk]

whenever i couldn't get tech data on hardness, with customer approval, i would do a tiny test cut . on the floor plate- inside would do. just a tiny cut will tell what you're up against.