Question: A question about scaling a design?

[Artemiss]

Hi folks,

I'd like to work up a design for engraving onto a rifle's magazine plate.

Whilst I have the plate available for sizing, I was wondering what the general rule is regarding scaling up.
I read somewhere, that drawing your design a little bigger, then scaling it down is easier than drawing to scale?
At the same time, if you make it to big, there's a tendancy to add too much detail and therefore it's more difficult to engrave!

So, I was wondering if there's a general percentage that people use to scale up / down their work!?

I'm not sure if any of this makes sense, but I'm hoping so.

Many thanks, Jo

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Jo

There is no general rule on these things and everyone will work differently. Over time you will find what works for you the best.

What I do is draw as big as I can. I work on the theory of......... start big and work your way down. I size everything up to fit on a peice of A4/Letter paper size. I also keep the original size on the paper as well. This just allows me to keep an eye on the scale and make sure I'm not drawing .5mm scrolls!!!

When you are starting out there are some real advantages to drawing this big. It basically means you have plenty of room for rubbing out, defining leaves and drawing scroll spines more acuratley. If you only draw double the size then the thickness of the pencil lead can become an issue and it becomes quite difficult to draw accuratley.

Give it a try and see what you think. Just keep in mind there are no rules on this kind of thing...........it's whatever suits you and your working style the best.

There is also another thing that you should keep in mind. Your drawings will never be 100% accurate or fit exactley. When you transfer or draw the design onto the plate you always have to make some minor adjustment so that scrolls or leaves touch the borders. So just be a bit mentally prepared for this.

So how will you be scaling?........computer, photocopier?? Will you be transferring the finished design? or drawing directley on the plate?.............it dosn't make any difference to the drawing or scaling......... I'm just curious

And one final thing................make sure you engrave the floor/magazine plate pointing the correct way..........how do I know that you can engrave it upside down????

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Artemiss]

how do I know that you can engrave it upside down????

LOL :big grin: Oooops!

Thanks for that Andrew. It made a lot of sense.
I was only going to scale up to about 150% but larger sounds better. As you say, the thickness of the pencil does end up obscuring quite a lot if it's too small.

The plate is just an object for me to focus on designing something for. I'm definitely not ready to start scratching it to pieces just yet

However, when I do... I'm really not sure which way I'll go with the transferring.
I've read so many different ways of doing this, they seem to be all merging into one and now I'm not sure which way will be easiest for me to start with to be honest.

Thanks again,

Jo

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Jo

An excellent idea. Floor plates are a great starting point and give you a very specific area to deal with. It gives you a little bit of direction.

Don't worry about the transferring if that's the path you choose to go down (as opposed to scribing directly onto the metal)..............it can be as low-tech as acetate and a needle (or pencil) or as high-tech as a computer..............they all work and it's only a matter of what you become more comfortable with.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[handengraver]

doing it twice or just once?

In the old days all or most clients expected to see in advance what the final outcome of their particularly ordered engraving job will be. In our time most clients are more flexible, and settle for a simple description of it sent by e-mail. Working first on paper lines well up with the old wisdom of practice, practice, practice and gives the opportunity to gain an intimate knowledge of the design long before applying it on the real job surface. From another point of view, drawing right on the workpiece will exclude the obvious task of adjusting a design to the real shape of the workable surface, and (I still use Chinese white) the corrections require only some more water color, and not the use of an eraser. After that one can mark the lines with a cold point. Even the drawing made on paper used to have two phases: first a pencil drawing, then a pen and ink drawing on a transparent paper, following the lines of the perfected pencil original.
I guess both methods - the slow and meticulous preparatory drawing on paper, and working directly on the material have their own advantages and disadvantages, it must be a matter of personal habits and preferences.

Ivan

 

[FANCYGUN]

Generally speaking, I find that scaling up between2 and 3 times is a good size to design with. Again as Andrew said there is no hard and fast rule but that seems to work best for me. I usually make either a tracing or a smoke print of the part. Then I can it into my computer and print it out larger on a piece of paper. I then outline it with a fine point drafting pen on tracing paper and get it back into the computer again for printing. I keep the original size scan for scaling my drawing back down to proper size afterwards.
Marty

 

[Artemiss]

In the old days all or most clients expected to see in advance what the final outcome of their particularly ordered engraving job will be.
Working first on paper lines well up with the old wisdom of practice, practice, practice and gives the opportunity to gain an intimate knowledge of the design long before applying it on the real job surface.
Ivan

Ivan,

I know if I were the client, I would prefer to see exactly what I was paying for before giving the go ahead. So with that in mind, I'm quite happy to start that way for now.
Also, I feel if I have the discipline to work with pencil/pen and paper and practice, practice, practice at this stage, it may prove best in the long run. I really don't know, but I'll try it to start with.

Generally speaking, I find that scaling up between2 and 3 times is a good size to design with. Again as Andrew said there is no hard and fast rule but that seems to work best for me.
Marty

Marty,

No hard and fast rule, but it's great to get suggestions and ideas. :thumbs up: That's what I love about this site, so thank you.

Andrew,

When you say low tech needle/pencil option. Can you explain?
Marcus was talking me through this the other day and whilst I understood it at the time, it's gotten a little mashed up in my mind now with everything else! (it's a complicated place to be) :big grin:

Thanks all for the suggestions :thumbs up:

Jo

 

[handengraver]

please, allow me another thought

Jo,

Executing engraving jobs with a high artistic value, which are richly demonstrared by our Esteemed Masters in the Cafe forums, certainly require the proper preparations with repeated or refined drawings on paper, and also during the long process of learning the best thing is to make drawings with great frequency even without practice plates. At the most common and least appreciated hand engraving situations that could have been viewed as the muddy trenches of the trade with dictated fees and serious competition, the preliminary drawing on paper was not an option. The commissioning jewelry retailer was impatiently waiting to get the job done, asking frequently how long will it take, or playing a little drum solo with their fingernails while waiting as his client did the same in his store... A script initial (ringtop) paid $2 to $6, a typical name on bracelets between 3 and 8, an iterlocked script monogram up to 16 dollars, inside ring 50 cents per letter. Under such circumstances detailed drawing was a luxury even on the workpiece, and the experienced engravers operated only with a few lines drawn, depending mostly on the image of the job they visioned for that piece. (Good old times.)

Ivan

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Jo

When you scale your drawing down to the correct size you flip it over so that you are working in reverse. Then lay the acetate over the top and scratch the design into the acetate with a sharp needle. This raises a slight burr on the surface of the acetate.

Dab a bit of plastacine over the work surface and then rub some graphite or dark powder into the scratched acetate. Flip it over and burnish onto the work. This should leave an outline/transfer.

The important part is................use clear acetate that you should be able to buy from an art supply store. Do not try and use clear inkjet transparencies that you use in a printer as this is too soft and doesn't create the necessary burr that holds the graphite/powder for transferring. Acetate for some reason does create the burr that you need.

Another way is to trace the design on the acetate with a very soft pencil (in reverse) and flip it over and burnish the design onto the plate. This will give you thicker lines than the needle/scratching method.

There are variations of all this where some engravers apply some Chinese white to the surface of the metal and transfer. Chinese white is just a water based artists colour that you can buy from any art/craft type shop. It comes in a small block. The advantage of Chinese white is that the transfer can be a bit clearer............The trick with Chinese White is to keep it very thin.

As I said.............it's low tech ................but it works

Like everything, try it on a bit of scrap first to get the hang of it and experiment a bit first till you get it right......................... and then you will be away.

Just a word of warning................the transfer will be fragile so you have two options. Be very careful with your cutting and not touch the surface with your fingers. Or you can then scribe the design onto the surface which is far more durable.

It all sounds a bit like gibberish at the moment .............but don't worry, it'll start making sense when you start doing it.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Artemiss]

When you scale your drawing down to the correct size you flip it over so that you are working in reverse. Then lay the acetate over the top and scratch the design into the acetate with a sharp needle. This raises a slight burr on the surface of the acetate.

Dab a bit of plastacine over the work surface and then rub some graphite or dark powder into the scratched acetate. Flip it over and burnish onto the work. This should leave an outline/transfer.

The important part is................use clear acetate that you should be able to buy from an art supply store. Do not try and use clear inkjet transparencies that you use in a printer as this is too soft and doesn't create the necessary burr that holds the graphite/powder for transferring. Acetate for some reason does create the burr that you need.

Andrew

Ahhh, yes this sounds familiar now.

I guess having your drawing on tracing paper to start with, makes this method a whole heap easier?
Or do people use light boxes?

You know how paper is graded in weight... Is actetate graded in the same way, or is it simply 'acetate'?
I have some somewhere that is relatively thick, so just wondering if that would do.

You also mentioned scribing design onto the surface with a needle. Is this just to penetrate the chinese white, or both the CW and mark the metal underneath?

Lastly, (for now) is it advisable to polish the practice plate, and if so is there a trusted medium/method?
Or should I just attack it with Solvol-Autosol, a rag and some elbow grease?

Sorry for all the questions, but I have to do something whilst I wait for my GRS order to be delivered! :big grin:

ATB,

Jo

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Jo

Tracing paper is good, but not necessary. A good low tech light box is your window during the day or a blank TV screen at night (just switch the DVD/Video on without anything in it) It's still what I use and one of these days I'll buy or make a light box.

As far as I'm aware, acetate is just acetate but the art store should be able to really confuse you on that one

Yes, scribing on the surface is to lightly mark the metal so you have a permanent line in the metal. Round your scriber on a stone very gently, just enough to get the sharp point off only.. You want to have more of an indentation than a sharp scratch........scratches are hard to get out later.

Yes, polish or finish all of your practice plates. Invest a bit of time in them and make them smooth and get out scratches and markings. 400 or 600 grit wet and dry sandpaper works well for this on practice plates. You can purchase wet and dry sandpaper from any hardware store. It still leaves the surface satin enough to be able to see the lines. If it's still too bright then just very lightly dab a bit of plastacine over the surface to keep the glare down.

No worries about the questions. If you don't ask then you'll never know............Waiting for the goodies to arrive......bummer.........for that there is no cure and you just have to tough that one out.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Ron Smith]

Let me add to what Andrew said. He mentioned rounding the point of the scribe so that you get a burnish mark rather than scratch the metal. This is only for the purpose of scribing the design on the metal you are working on.

For acetate transfers, you need a pricky sharp stylet to make the proper bur. There are several tyes of acetate or like materials.

What I use that works is Dura-lar (brand name). It is a combination of mylar and acetate. I think you can buy this at an office supply. I have forgotten where I got it. Maybe an art sypply.

It comes in a tablet form and there are 25 sheets to the tablet.

The name of the product is:

Grafix
DURA-LAR
the acetate alternative

By the way, you can use these acetates over and over again. They are also good record keeping proceedures to save these for future references.

Ron S

 

[John B.]

Jo.
Just use some washed (reclaimed) X-Ray film for your acetate.
It's the best to take a bur, should be available at most medical labs.

John B.

 

[Artemiss]

A good low tech light box is your window during the day or a blank TV screen at night (just switch the DVD/Video on without anything in it) It's still what I use and one of these days I'll buy or make a light box.

I do have an old home-made light box which should suffice. I didn't dare mention the possibility of using a window on here... thought that would be far too low tech... how wrong!

For acetate transfers, you need a pricky sharp stylet to make the proper bur. There are several tyes of acetate or like materials.
Ron S

Would it be ok to use a pin-vice, with a pin/needle? Or would this be to flexible or not thick enough?

Just use some washed (reclaimed) X-Ray film for your acetate.
It's the best to take a bur, should be available at most medical labs.John B.

Yes John, such an obvious place to look! :big grin:
Unfortunately, here in the UK, Medical labs are not generally found on many street corners.

Cheers guys, Jo

 

[Ron Smith]

Jo,

A pin vise works beautifully. The needle needs to be of good quality. A needle will work but I use a carbon steel that I can temper myself. The tempering gives it lasting qualities and you don't have to sharpen it too often, but about any good sharp point will do. I turn it on my foredom hand piece and then finish it with a stone. One of the reasons for a good quality steel is that i also use this for scrimshaw and it needs to be tough.

Ron S