A question on copying

[Sandy]

For some time I have been thinking about a question. I would like input from everyone on this and I know that it is a sticky question. “What is copying and when does it occur?â€￾

I have read a lot about this to include what Sam has on Igraver.com. This question has really come home since I have read Fredric A. Harris book “Firearms Engraving as Decorative Art, The Origin of American Firearms Engraving Motifs in the Decorative Art of The Middle Eastâ€￾. That in itself is a mouthful. Dr. Harris states “Whether we are talking about Nimschke, or Gustave Young, or Samuel Hoggson, or Conrad Ulrich or one of his sons, there is ample evidence that these craftsmen shared design motifs and borrowed them from each other. And, more importantly, they drew upon artistic sources much older than and outside the field of firearms engraving.â€￾ With this in mind I repeat my question, “What is copying and when does it occur?â€￾ If I see a leaf structure in someone else’s work that I like and I incorporate it into a design that I am doing have I copied? There is a finite number of ways you can draw a scroll and all its components.

A beginner asks for you help

 

[Dmitry Martinov]

I think it´s completely up to you, to use someones elements or not. But will you be ready to say in the end that it was made by your idea.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

It’s a good question Sandy and one that can spark a lot of debate.

To me copying is deliberately/consciously taking someone else’s design in it’s entirety or major parts of it and making a direct copy and trying to pass it off as your own work or design. (Practice plates excluded)

That being said, it’s almost impossible to avoid completely. As beginners we generally don’t have any choice in the matter. We are always looking at other artisans work in books, magazines, the internet and actual pieces. Consciously or sublimely we are taking it all in. A leaf here, a scroll there type of thing. Naturally we tend to gravitate toward the work that appeals to us personally. With copying and time comes development of our own style with new innovations, additions and alterations. Acanthus leaves would be a good example. How many millions of these have been drawn, engraved and carved over the centuries and yet most people manage to make them look unique. The shading variations are endless. Scrolls are another example. The combinations between the two are never ending.

I always keep a handful of my favourite books close by and when I’m stuck for ideas or can’t quite get the effect I’m looking for, I glance through them for inspiration. I don’t think that’s copying.

Anyway, that’s my 2 cents worth and only my opinion and I’m sure others will have different ideas on the subject.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[ED DELORGE]

Cheers Andrew, very well spoken. We have to copy to learn. Every thing that we have learned in life we learned by copying some one else. But intentionally defrauding some one is wrong. For instance to buy an old colt single action duplicate a factory pattern refinish it to origional condition and then sell it as an origional is wrong. On the other hand some times it is proper to duplicate an item for a customer on a newly manufactured item where in every one will know that it is a duplicate. I will tell this story and leave the engravers name out because, I have not asked permission to tell the story. But he was hired by a musium, as the story was told to me, to duplicate the engraving on the hand gun that Adolph Hitler used to shoot himself. As I was told the reproduction was so exact that the curitor of the musium had a difficult time distinguishing it from the origional. I have a picture of the duplicate. The engraving is supurb.
Recently I copied game sceen off of a german made rifle in order to try to learn the three demensional effect
that the germans do so well. Lots of reliefe work. Only after nearly completly finishing the job did I start to feel that I was learning, what you might call the depth perception, that the germans do so well. But all of that is necessary.

Good luck Sandy

 

[en2siastic]

Hello Sandy,
Some would say that you are reaching the border between artisans and artists, but in fact we are a mixture of artisan and artist. I recently had a blood test, they found 90% of artisan and 10% of artist in my blood.LOLLL
Best regards.
Francis.

 

[Sandy]

Francis,
How is the leg doing?

 

[Cody]

To some, this issue is pretty black and white. It's often the people that have a natural artistic ability to design that have the strongest opinions against copying in any degree. It becomes something like a non-smoker telling someone hopelessly addicted to nicotine to "just quit". When something comes easily to someone, it's often hard for them to relate to the struggles faced by those to whom it doesn't. While copying is usually calculated, it's not always so. Example. In 1997, I built a rifle for my Dad. The patch box design was based on one i had seen in a book but was suficiently changed as to be related but not a copy. While designing the side plate, I had a general idea what i wanted and spent a few days drawing, changing redrawing until I came up with a totally original design that i was pleased with. Several years later, I was flipping through a book that I had not looked at for many years and came across a rifle built by Dennis Mulford. I was mortified to see the EXACT same side plate as the one I so painstakenly designed for my dads rifle. It becamse immediately obvious that I had seen the side plate in the book years before and, while I didn't really remember it, it was buried somewhere in my sub conscious. Now I know why I had this idea in my head of what I wanted and why, once I got the design worked out it seemed so obviously "right". Was it copied???. Absolutely. Was it copied on purpose???, doesn't really matter. If Dennis seen it and had an issue with it, I doubt he would really care if it was traced out of the book or copied subconsciously. The end result is the same. When it comes to artwork like this, I think if someone exposes it to the public, they should expect and accept that it will likely get copied to some degree. This is relating to "copying" and does not address the issue of what is done with the copies. That IMO is a whole different subject and I suspect more of an issue to those whose work is copied than the copying itself..

 

[en2siastic]

Sandy,
Today I've got a brand new plaster cast. I'll keep it four weeks, then they'll put me another one for another month.... I'm alright anyway I can engrave...
Have a nice day.
Francis

 

[KSnyder]

Sandy, for me engraving involves alot of styles or "schools" with certain leaf parts or tendrils etc. It probably unavoidable to not use at least some element of these previous designs.
Copying is using an entire plate , frame or whatever to replicate it through a conscieus effort. Design elements are just that , elements that make up a whole.
Although 10 people could try to draw the same leaf , it probably comes out different 10 times as well.
Using copy writed designs is indeed copying. ( without prior approval ) that is.
Thats why there a lots of pattern books without copy write restrictions so those that cant or wont take the time to learn to draw can use them without hesistation.
my $.02
Happy Easter,
Kent

 

[AllanFink1960]

Well, copying masterworks has been considered good training for centuries. However there are some distinctions. If you copy for your own learning, or for your own use, or to create something that is gifted to someone else, no one is going to care much about that. The lawsuits start when you try to make MONEY with someone else's design. I think most of the pro engravers here would be ruffled if they found someone making "knock offs" of their designs and selling them on ebay for large sums of money. However if they saw someone using some scroll, leaf, or border pattern that they taught them on here, but used in their own unique design, they would probably even be honored. Someone already mentioned "practice plates" as being fair game for copying. I think the distinction comes in the purpose of it, primarily making money.


allan

 

[KSnyder]

I wouldn't mind being a "hack" doing factory work!
Kent

 

[ChrisB]

Being From Africa,!! and Not Having The Training MASTERS that Ya All Have in The States,!! We Have To Rely on the Web and Pictures as well as Casts from the Masters to Learn From.!! That Said, We Will Start off Copieng the Masters Work at First,!! Doesn't Your Art Teacher Tell You this !! Then In Time We Will Develop our Own Style, But Still Influencted by the Teacher,?? All The Greats Out There Today, Cannot Deny!! That There Teachers Still Have A Inflluance on there Designs, !! Although they Would Like to Deny It.??
I Don't mean Copieng a Design Word By Word, Or Bether, Scoll By Scrol.!!

ChrisB

 

[en2siastic]

Hi Sandy,
Here is my way of copying, I took two subjects from a book and I've put them together, I've change the shapes of the subjects to fit the knife handle.
Have a good day.
Francis

 

[Sandy]

I would like to thank eveyone for there input on my question. I have stated before That I am not an artist and at my age I will stay that way. With the computer a non artist like myself can cut and past anything. With Photoshop, or other such programs you can do just about anything. Push it pull it stretch twist it. I guess this is where your personnal ethics come into the picture.

 

[TallGary]

Sandy,

Thank you for posting the question. I gained quite a lot from the viewpoints that were expressed.

Gary

 

[Sandy]

Francis my friend. Thank you.

 

[Bill Tokyo]

"Artists" magazine says

I'm interested in seeing this discussion here, because it is a frequent topic in "Artists" magazine also.

They, in fact, have a legal advice column for artists which deals with this. The big bugaboo for artists is using
photographs as their reference material. Engravers don't usually have this problem. this is because their sources
of reference are usually books on ornamental design.

Almost all the reference material engravers depend on is either out of copyright, or with the Dover material, allows one to use it provided the entire book isn't copied. Even with paintings, copying is OK if you do it larger or smaller.

So I don't think there are too many problems, but "Artists" magazine gives one a reference to check this question out in more detail if necessary.

 

[AllanFink1960]

KSnyder
Okay, point taken. I dont mean to minimize the respect due engravers working in factories. I will delete my comment.

 

[Marrinan]

Frances,
your "copy" is a wonderful adaptation of design. I would be very proud of such coping. Please post when you cut it. Fred