Discussion on arm supports

[Ron Smith]

Since the engraving world has shifted to horizontal engraving with microscopes etc., There will be, I am afraid, a need to adjust the posture aspects, unless you mount your vice, scope, etc. very low. Most benches don't allow for this, unless you have adaptors etc. GRS has tried to accomodate this need, but something I see, and this only would apply to one who is an all around engraver (One who engraves on anything and everything), The scope sets up a situation I think, that would be very tiring without something to get you arm and wrist in a straight line and there is a lot of stuff that gets in your way.

Working with conventional tools and methods, (old ways) you tilt the vise to get your arm and wrist in line. Then the rotation of the vise will allow you to make smooth turns and circles without strain as you turn the vise into your tool, rather than work your wrist to make the curve. If the wrist is in a forced position, making smooth curves becomes more difficult, plus the strain after long hours at the bench will begin to tell on you.

It will show up in all kinds of places, as your body is not in a natural position. Stress causes tension. Tension causes lost hand eye co-ordination.

Now, the arm rest idea is a good one getting the elbow up for cutting on a horizontal plane (microscope), but stagnating movement a bit. It is pretty essential to include movement as the body was designed for motion, so shift your position and make your engraving area a bit adjustable so that you can do this. Just slight adjustments every little while will minimize the fatigue and tension and therefore pain.

An arm rest can be made simply by having a slot cut that a board will slide in and out of the bench with a pad to rest the elbow on (can be soft rubber or foam). It doesn't have to be complicated, and would be very easy to install on a bench that you are making yourself. You can slide the rest into the bench to get it out of the way.

It was a little easier to assume good posture when you were young and could see, but with magnification and very close tedious work of today's engravers, we have exasterbated good posture with magnification, and the need to be very still to see through the scope, at least that is my take on it. Am too old to change my ways I guess, but speed was extremely important in my day, and one couldn't afford to be putting obstacles in his way and he needed to be very fluid and flexible. Time is money. Every moment wasted was time lost on the project.

Just some thoughts that might help you get a bit more comfortable with less pain if there is any.

Ron S

 

[Marcus Hunt]

I'm not so sure about this arm support idea. Whilst I agree that we all need to take care of our posture and physical health, I can't really see this working. Indeed it is the slight repetitive movements of limbs that cause carpal tunnel injuries. Touch typists seem to suffer from this because their arms are fixed in one position and the movement of the fingers very slight, so supporting the arm whilst engraving could perhaps be counter productive. Now I must add I'm no physician so this is just a wild guess, any medics out there please chip in.

I agree, Ron, that it is the rotation of the vise that should be the primary tool in cutting a curve but depending on what you're engraving, there are different planes that need the graver controlling arm to be able to move and adapt to this. One day, in some science fiction future, not doubt we'll be able to slip into some frame that will support us and move fluidly with our every movement whilst taking away any muscle fatigue. But if this ever comes about the human being risks becoming a gelatinous blob. Muscles are meant to be used after all.

My personal opinion is that arm supports could end up being more of a hinderance than a help in the long run.

Ron, this is a great thread for a very interesting discussion!!!!! I'm looking forward to reading the replies of experienced pros' versus the hobbyist/novice engravers' take on this.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I use a jeweller bench, and the front of the tabletop is made concave to lay the elbows on when working.
As I use the GRS tools to change from file pin to ball vise, also because the table is to high, there is no possibility to use this "elbow rest".
I also use the block shelves to lower more the ball vise, because I can't see true the microscope otherwise.
My chair is ergonomic, but without armrest, as the chair needs to go under the lower plateau that capture the precious metals.
Depending on what I'm doing, I raise or lower my chair.

Stone setters use sometimes the tabletop to lay their elbows on, but I have never seen one doing that while using a microscope.

Sure I'm not a full time engraver, so I can't say if an armrest would help, but sure a cup of coffee from time to time helps me, stand up, walk around and so on.

It is like with your eyes, if you look al the time close to things, it is good to have a window before you just to take a far look.

arnaud

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Human kinetics is a difficult subject. A perfect ergonomic setup might not be so perfect when either introducing or removing arm support. You might be relieving the weight from your arm(s) but that bench is now pushing back .... inevitably adding pressure to a different set of muscles or one of the cervical vertebrae. These things sometimes don't flare up for years and then you're suddenly joining the ranks of laboratory technicians at the chiropractor who use microscopes daily.

I don't believe that any position that promotes a sedentary lifestyle is good in the long term. Studies performed in the computer field show that frequent breaks (from the monitor and position) work best for keeping those work related injuries to a minimum.

"A body at rest tends to remain at rest but a body in motion tends to stay in motion". I've found that a good balance of activity away from the bench to sitting at the bench tends to not only minimize the aches and pains but also improves the quality of work for that time. I take days off here and there or put in fewer hours and work a little more on the weekends .... some things sit on my bench longer because of it but the customer gets the best I can do. Keeping the passion to cut at bay is sometimes the hardest part. The anxiety of wanting to engrave and knowing you have to while forcing yourself to concentrate on something else .... whether it is exercising, tossing the football to the dog or even preparing metal for a job that's much further down the to-do list.

I'm not claiming to have any answers. Even a seemingly comfortable bench setup can exacerbate the issues associated with the muscle atrophy and weight gain we experience as we grow older. That includes the nights sleeping on a good or bad mattress or that afternoon nap on the couch.

Chris

 

[Ron Smith]

My reason for writing this was in response to the other arm rest thread. I never had back or neck problems while doing my work, and when hearing of these newer engravers complaining of pain from time to time, and some of the older ones, I wondered if posture was not the reason.

I work at a tilt or angle, and because of that my wrist and arms remain comfortably at my side, or close to it, wrist and arm aligned. Now I was also talking about the all-around engraver. Many today do not spend the hours of a full time engraver.

Many do other tasks such as jewelry work and try to include a place for engraving on ther jewelry bench where an arm rest might be of help (setting diamonds etc.). I would think doing engraving on a jewelers bench would be the worst case senario. I worke on a heavy hard wood, or metal desk and had an adjustable chair.

I agree and did mention that the human body was designed for motion, not stagnation.

Not having worked on a horizontal plain, where the elbows are higher, and the wrist is cocked as I have observed, I was speculating about the disadvantage of this position. I think it is too soon to tell, but I bet that after numbers of years of misalignment, as you get older, these things will begin to show up.

An "all around engraver" also moves around much more than one who concentrates on a square inch for hours, barely moving. Of course I did everything. Very large items you had to hold in your lap, to very small items. Things you had to hold on a pad rather than being able to put them in a vise or in other words, Jewelry engraving versus high end, tighter more tedious, close up work. There is a lot more movement the way I worked due to the diversity of items.

The arm rest idea should not be intended to replace flexibility, but rather to enhance it. It gives you an alternate position. I probably didn't mention that or make that very clear.

I have also noticed that many scope set-ups are very low were the elbows are naturally bent where the vise top is close to the waist high position sitting down. An arm rest in that case would be of no benifit what so ever.

Also the main point was in wrist alignment, stress, tension etc.

There are always ways to make something work without setting youself up for pain, which we may not find out until we get older after years, but moving around is very important like you Marcus and Arnaud said, including the eyes.

As I said, I never had any pain from engraving. I supposed that it was or might be the difference in the old way and the new approach, and if it is, it would benifit us to experiment, as the new techniques are quite at odds with the old ones.

Probably only time will tell, but the old ways came about by many more years of experience (hundreds?), where the new ones are, should we say "new".

I just thought this would be something to think about and not being able to use the microscope, am giving engraving from the "older" point of view in comparison.

I know time will reveal a new, solid, prescription for the new styles.

Forward!

Ron S

 

[Kevin P.]

"I have the answer", he says with a laugh.
I'm a rude beginner; but I've been doing something similar, that is, handwork that calls for close attention.
There are some things that I've found helpful. For the past thirty years I've been a lapidary and for almost as long a goldsmith. It just strick me recently that I've come to this field where what one does is 'cutting' and lapidarys are more commonly called 'cutters'.
What I do is how I've made my living; so it's necessary to do a broad range of things
to make a living thing. It might be more accurate to say I'm a jeweler who also does some other things.
One aspect of what I do is to carve waxes as models for jewelry. One has to pay very close attention: the wax can be fragile and the detail has to be precise. I've found myself working on a wax and suddenly the wax explodes in my hand. I see it as a combination of holding a somewhat fragile thing in ones fingers and tension that develops in ones muscles because of the pressure. Everyone I've met who does waxes exclusively has regular appointments with their chiropracter. I don't
I attribute this to my work habits. I do waxes for awhile, sitting; then I go to my lapidary work, which I do standing, then I might do metalwork.
Not doing the same task all day long is helpful. I'm also aware of ergonomics. Most things are designed for the average person; none of us is average. All my work spaces are designed for my body. My lapidary bench is at the height so when I'm standing in front of the machine with my forearms parallel to the floor, I'm at the sweet spot on the wheel.
I also take naps. I work to my own inner clock. I realize that I'm a very fortunate person in that way.
I have a professionally made jeweler's bench which has wooden armrests on either side that extend from a recess in the bench. I find that I don't use them much. They are solid, not wobbly. I had to jack up the bench to get it at a comfortable height.
I'm the one who brought up the armrest. For certain engraving I find it helpful so my hand is at the same level as the top of the vice.
As i've been practicing lettering I find myself pushing it away at certain points. I just bought a floor model drill press to convert to hold my GRS so that in combination so I can keep my back straight. You guys/girls who have been doing this a long time have developed what works for you.
For my engraving efforts I'm taking what I've already learned and combining new devices to help me with engraving. I'm going to change whatever I feel is necessary as I learn the techniques of this craft.

Now for the most important thing I can think of in my view: I, by inclination and habit, work early in my studio, solo always. I get a few hours in before light starts to appear over the 'Sangre de Christo'.
I put on my walking shoes and step out the door and head down the arroyo with my walking companion 'muchita'. Everyday she's waiting at my door. It's her favorite thing of all to do. She's well socialized, non aggressive and goes without a leash. We don't talk; she doesn't need direction. This activity calms the mind, soothes the disposition and keeps the moving parts moving. Muchita and I do about three and one half miles in just under an hour, Again I realize how lucky I am to live in such a place where this is possible. I generally do this this several times a week if I'm not on a business trip. I always feel better both mentally and physically afterwards.
This has been a long posting; maybe it'll be of some help.
But of all the points I've tried to make it's the 'walk'.
Kevin P.

 

[monk]

hmmmm. ron, a very brilliant thought to touch upon. i'm in the process of making one anyway, but surely what you mentioned is quite true. i really never gave much thought to this, but the device would either cause some tension , or perhaps bring on some sort of limitation to our natural movements. good or bad, i'm curious enough to find out. thanks for your input on this, ron.

 

[richard hall]

I dont get to fired up to go with the arm support, most of my work involves tilting the vise or ill move the vise to my handy tree trunk i brought in and walk my engraver around that. maybe ill put ball bearings on my tree stump in the future. I mostly stand when engraving, but there are times when i do sit, but, the arm support at this place in time, just doesnt excite me, nor is it needed. Iam almost 61 and still get around pretty well, but i know that there are thoses whom may not be that lucky and an arm support may be a very good idea for them. I should say that i only use hammer and chisel, that may lead to less vibration than youd get with air assisted tooling, but not sure, i know that when using tools that produce vibration, they will make my hands and fingers cramp up after awhile.

 

[Kevin P.]

Ron I think that what we all agree on is to position ourselves to be comfortable and allow us to do our best work.
"The arm rest idea should not be intended to replace flexibility, but rather to enhance it. It gives you an alternate position. I probably didn't mention that or make that very clear."
I think I started this armrest thing and It's difficult if not impossible to include all details.
My take on this particular arm rest is that it's not intended to carry weight; it's more of a guide. It is also articulated, which is critical; arm rests on jeweler's benches are not. It's helpful only in limited ways. I'm speaking from very limited experience in engraving; but I've alread found out that it doesn't help with lettering.
The entire discussion has been helpful for us to reassess our postures and other ergonomic ways to make our time at the bench more productive. Experienced engravers may find this unuseful. It was also brought up in relation to the 'elbow up' thing. You guys that are pros are way beyond this idea of an arm rest. It's not something to lean on just a reminder to keep the elbow up.
Kevin P.