Hand Engraving Article
- Thread starter mdengraver
- Start date
Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
This article is from 26 years ago. It is pretty much irrelevant today. ''It's a dying trade which no one will take the time do." Long after the renaissance of hand engraving, we still read or hear this highly inaccurate quote.
As to the prices quoted, they sound much more like prices from 1960 than 1990, especially in New York. I know that I didn't work for those prices in the 1970s.
"Don't do that. Make art. Don't make crap." Hand engraved, quality lettering is not "crap." It requires a great deal of skill and can be admired for what it is. Many occupational engravers correctly view what they do as a trade. Only the most skilled and artistic can afford to approach hand engraving as an art unless they are dilettantes. Just the same, every top artist/engraver I know of can do high quality lettering and it is often a small part of their projects.
I have added an example of some lettering on the back of a small watch below.
As to the prices quoted, they sound much more like prices from 1960 than 1990, especially in New York. I know that I didn't work for those prices in the 1970s.
"Don't do that. Make art. Don't make crap." Hand engraved, quality lettering is not "crap." It requires a great deal of skill and can be admired for what it is. Many occupational engravers correctly view what they do as a trade. Only the most skilled and artistic can afford to approach hand engraving as an art unless they are dilettantes. Just the same, every top artist/engraver I know of can do high quality lettering and it is often a small part of their projects.
I have added an example of some lettering on the back of a small watch below.
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Elliott.jpg
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No offense Mr. Bleile,
I feel that engraving will die if it does not expand. Scrolls are passe. Sorry. I will work my butt off to prove it.
I'm sorry we disagree but what you posted above bores me to death.
Thank you to those who have an open mind.
I feel that engraving will die if it does not expand. Scrolls are passe. Sorry. I will work my butt off to prove it.
I'm sorry we disagree but what you posted above bores me to death.
Thank you to those who have an open mind.
wowilson
Elite Cafe Member
There is no doubt that you will blaze new trails in the world of engraving. Just look what you've done for being an insufferable bore.
Latergaters
Elite Cafe Member
For someone who touts innovation and openness to new ideas you are pretty small minded. Inspiration is everywhere, even in the past.
Roger,
Thank you for sharing that wonderful example of layout and lettering. Certainly not too much more than just "bread and butter" for a busy engraver of that time, but what a wealth of skill to layout and execute so cleanly, and the crisp, spare flourishes seem to foreshadow the Art Deco period that was to gain so much traction after WW1. I appreciate lettering, and seeing this little gem made my day.
Best regards,
Doug
Thank you for sharing that wonderful example of layout and lettering. Certainly not too much more than just "bread and butter" for a busy engraver of that time, but what a wealth of skill to layout and execute so cleanly, and the crisp, spare flourishes seem to foreshadow the Art Deco period that was to gain so much traction after WW1. I appreciate lettering, and seeing this little gem made my day.
Best regards,
Doug
mvangle
Elite Cafe Member
Awesome picture Roger! Some can only dream of being old school.
Gemsetterchris
Elite Cafe Member
"Of the world"..
there is a whole lot of that outside the USA ( believe it or not ).
From an outside point of view these statements are really ignorant... although there probably is an element of truth in it.
there is a whole lot of that outside the USA ( believe it or not ).From an outside point of view these statements are really ignorant...
although there probably is an element of truth in it.
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JMiller
Elite Cafe Member
I agree, I really like the different styles of lettering used and the skill to do it.
Sgwiley, could you post pictures of examples of the type of artwork you intend to engrave? It helps to have a visual to better understand where you want to go.
Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
"Scrolls are passe." SGWiley
You are correct in the sense that Baroque music by Vivaldi and Mozart are passe, as compared to rap and hip-hop, now in vogue for the moment. Nonetheless, millions of people still listen to and perform baroque music more than 200 years after it was written because it has classical beauty and elegance much like scroll ornament.
Sam Alfano has created an archive of ornamental scrollwork that can be licensed by artists and designers of all kinds. As a result, I have seen his scroll appear on everything from a tissue box to a whiskey bottle. I have a tee shirt that incorporates Sam's scroll. His designs are even on a credit card. Far from being passe, scrollwork has reemerged in recent years as a key influence in decorative design.
With all that said, hand engravers do not have to cut lettering or scroll as part of their repertoire if that engraver is willing to constantly turn away requests for that type of work. On knives and jewelry it would not be too hard to stay away from scroll and lettering, but guns are a different thing. The vast majority of gun collectors expect to see scrollwork on their guns and often want a personalizing or memorial inscription to go with the scroll.
When you write "I feel that engraving will die if it does not expand." on what experience in the field do you base this "feeling?" Many of us have attended hundreds of gun and knife collector shows and base our opinions of what these people want and expect after conversations with thousands of collectors. When I started engraving 40 years ago, hand engraving had been declining but in the intervening years the art has expanded exponentially.
I wish you well in your quest for the next great thing but it is not necessary to denigrate the art of ages to go in a different direction.
You are correct in the sense that Baroque music by Vivaldi and Mozart are passe, as compared to rap and hip-hop, now in vogue for the moment. Nonetheless, millions of people still listen to and perform baroque music more than 200 years after it was written because it has classical beauty and elegance much like scroll ornament.
Sam Alfano has created an archive of ornamental scrollwork that can be licensed by artists and designers of all kinds. As a result, I have seen his scroll appear on everything from a tissue box to a whiskey bottle. I have a tee shirt that incorporates Sam's scroll. His designs are even on a credit card. Far from being passe, scrollwork has reemerged in recent years as a key influence in decorative design.
With all that said, hand engravers do not have to cut lettering or scroll as part of their repertoire if that engraver is willing to constantly turn away requests for that type of work. On knives and jewelry it would not be too hard to stay away from scroll and lettering, but guns are a different thing. The vast majority of gun collectors expect to see scrollwork on their guns and often want a personalizing or memorial inscription to go with the scroll.
When you write "I feel that engraving will die if it does not expand." on what experience in the field do you base this "feeling?" Many of us have attended hundreds of gun and knife collector shows and base our opinions of what these people want and expect after conversations with thousands of collectors. When I started engraving 40 years ago, hand engraving had been declining but in the intervening years the art has expanded exponentially.
I wish you well in your quest for the next great thing but it is not necessary to denigrate the art of ages to go in a different direction.
zzcutter
Elite Cafe Member
I would say that Scrolls are the Brick and Mortar of must engraving projects it is what ties things together and helps things flow. As what Roger has said there are so many more pursuing the hand engraving art as hobby and profession today so I would say our ranks are growing. I think people today appreciate a piece hand engraved much more then the things that machines are producing from my experiences. Just my two cents. ZZ
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quickcut07
Elite Cafe Member
Roger as with many things Old School is Cool . My parents ran an engraving and trophy business for many years and every once in a while a piece would come in from way back. Golfing, football, hockey and the list goes on, some of these close to 100 yrs. old. It always amazed me the styles as they changed thru the years both in letters and numerals. One of the salesman for a top Toronto silver and plating companies would stop by every so often. He was a wealth of information on all things silver related and engraved. They had done a few rebuilds or repairs on the Stanley Cup.
He had dropped off several old engraved plates, wish I had them today. Some had visible layout lines some not. Others had a definite Old World grace some a blend of the old and new then there was the common style with changing flair introduced as the years went by. As I said I wish I had these they were and are beautiful pieces of workmanship.
Try getting Lord Stanleys cup in a vise to work on.
Eric
He had dropped off several old engraved plates, wish I had them today. Some had visible layout lines some not. Others had a definite Old World grace some a blend of the old and new then there was the common style with changing flair introduced as the years went by. As I said I wish I had these they were and are beautiful pieces of workmanship.
Try getting Lord Stanleys cup in a vise to work on.
Eric
Tim Wells
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Without reading past the 7th post on this thread I would make one request. If you're going to troll here or make posts just to irritate others, Don't! It is unnecessary, and does nothing to further the craft or educate anyone.
Thierry Duguet
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2007
- Messages
- 359
I think that a lot of clients ask for scrolls because it is what they see, what they know. Engraver are so obsess with making money (please excuse the obvious generalization) that they do not bother investing time on something different. Clients want to see what is possible and are often open to suggestions but what do most of us have to show? Scroll work! Why would client ask for anything else? Most do not have the educations or the imagination to picture something different from what is presented to them, it is not their job, not part of what they know.
I read too often that the engravers let the client dictate what will be done. Countless time I told prospective customers that what they wanted was inappropriate or undesirable, it is part of my job! and most of the time we agree on something quiet different from what they were coming for, and often they are happy that I was there to guide them toward something more to their liking even if at first they were not able to depict it. Most engraver want to be seen as artist but act as machinist trying to make a sell, they are so afraid to lose a job that they refuse to counsel and guide potential clients.
I did read countless time that engraving is a business, and it is but it is not only a business. If your only satisfaction come from the money you receive you are more like a car mechanic and you will receive the same consideration.
One last word, just because one want to be an artist does not make it so, one does not self reveal him or herself as an artist, the world see you as such or not. Through the eyes of others, sometime, one is better seen.
I read too often that the engravers let the client dictate what will be done. Countless time I told prospective customers that what they wanted was inappropriate or undesirable, it is part of my job! and most of the time we agree on something quiet different from what they were coming for, and often they are happy that I was there to guide them toward something more to their liking even if at first they were not able to depict it. Most engraver want to be seen as artist but act as machinist trying to make a sell, they are so afraid to lose a job that they refuse to counsel and guide potential clients.
I did read countless time that engraving is a business, and it is but it is not only a business. If your only satisfaction come from the money you receive you are more like a car mechanic and you will receive the same consideration.
One last word, just because one want to be an artist does not make it so, one does not self reveal him or herself as an artist, the world see you as such or not. Through the eyes of others, sometime, one is better seen.
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Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
"Arboreal Deep Relief" by Thierry Duguet. No scrollwork!
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Duguet-3.jpg
Indy Joneds
Elite Cafe Member
This guy .. your about as subtle as a flying chainsaw .
You dont like scrolls . we get it.
You dont like scrolls . we get it.
dlilazteca
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Beautiful lettering
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