lion on a nickel

[monk]

ok, i've laid out the luneberg lion design on my nickel. not a good first choice. i love the design, it was used by ldn, so it must be good. not my own design, i know-so shoot me. but- do i begin working the lowest areas first, working up to the higher areas ? or start at the top parts and work to the lowest area towards the background ? i've never tried to create levels of depth before. i must say the scope really shows the true depth of things. this whole thing amazes me.

 

[Steve Adams]

I usually start by indicating the design on first, then removing as much background as I think should go. Removing a lot of background first lets me sculpt the design freely without having to stop along the way to remove background as I go. If you carve deep you'll have a more sculpted look. If you find you want to go deeper while carving the design then you can always remove more material from around the design later. Check your depth occasionally, a nickel is thick but can easily be carved through if you get carried away. I like carving deep, thus the warning.

 

[monk]

I usually start by indicating the design on first, then removing as much background as I think should go. Removing a lot of background first lets me sculpt the design freely without having to stop along the way to remove background as I go. If you carve deep you'll have a more sculpted look. If you find you want to go deeper while carving the design then you can always remove more material from around the design later. Check your depth occasionally, a nickel is thick but can easily be carved through if you get carried away. I like carving deep, thus the warning.

thanks. i gotta study my drawing more carefully to decide just how to begin this. i fear a less than thoughtful approach might lead to bad results.

 

[coincutter]

ok, i've laid out the luneberg lion design on my nickel. not a good first choice. i love the design, it was used by ldn, so it must be good. not my own design, i know-so shoot me. but- do i begin working the lowest areas first, working up to the higher areas ? or start at the top parts and work to the lowest area towards the background ? i've never tried to create levels of depth before. i must say the scope really shows the true depth of things. this whole thing amazes me.

Monk

For what its worth

When i deal with carving in any material or even with painting I try to establish 5 planes of focus. Each plane with lesser detail than the others ie the back having the least detail. It's not necessary to have a razor sharp image from front to back - somethines that servers as a detriment although when working in the limited space of a nickel you have to get pretty picky. I work in reverse from Steve Adams to a point as I will generally not cut a deep background until last or if i need it to pull off an effect simply because thats where 99 percent of all the cussing and swearing goes on as the background or field is generally preferred by most collectors to be left or at least appearing in a pristine state.

to simplifiy this thought pattern scribe the outline of your design
then scribe in the next areas of importance sequentially

then rough carve each layer to see how things work
kind of like generating a topo map - no real necessity for detail at this juncture

when that is done its time to make a descision as to where to start
keeping in mind you can take metal off but its harder to put it back in

at this point i invariably cut the finest details closest to the viewer
then i move to the layer farthest back and work forward to the front

worst case scenerio if i screw things up I can always recut front to rear and maintain the same image without having to take off huge amounts of metal - hope this is making sense to you

once the piece is carved its time for detaiing which can be done by any number of methods/tooling
after you have carved away most of the age hardened metal you will find that you are working with a pretty soft surface which takes the impression of almost anything - so the sky is the limit on what tool you make or use to impress a texture on the surface of the coin.

dont limit yourself to thinking that any one type of tool should be avoided
try everything to see what works for you - get inventive - if the tool is not on your bench make one

those samples I sent you were not what would be considered extremely deep carvings but you saw the depth. The deeper you cut the more work you create for yourself. The descision to make the jump from Bas Relief to really deep carving is more subject dependant. Ie somethings just look better in 3/4 than 1/4 or side views. You should note that most coins on the market are extreamly shallow cuts but they get alot going on in a very limited amount of space. That in itself is another form of the art.

Some folks just cant carve shallow some cant carve deep
others cant carve at all
only a few can carve a coin that looks as good from the left view as it does from the right
fewer can carve a coin that looks good from any angle.
some carve the coins so deep you can see light though the thinkness of the metal ;-)
much of this will depend on the way your cordinative skills come together

it may take you a few coins or a couple of years to get the hang of it. it's not as easy as everyone would lead other to believe.

foreign coins are cheaper to learn on, newer nickels cut differnt than older ones
pennies are a great place to start as the copper is soft

your tools need to be extreamly sharp. remember you litterally cant cut metal you can only cleave it so the sharper the better to make this process happen.

dont take off too much metal at a time
work into each layer slowly

you may find that you have to make a limited set of tools specifically for carving as traditional graver grinds do not lend themselves to working within the confines of a coin although i have cut and shaped complete coins with a 120 i wouldnt recommend it for a beginner - stay with flats and rounds to start with - preferably with radius heels


when in doubt ask Steve Adams he is numero uno
Sam is a better source than he lets on although I believe he doesnt play much with coins anymore but i remember seeing some of his work that was very impressive and there are a lot of people out there who wish he would start up again.
Bill can tell you some good tricks too

best way is to get pics of the types of carvings you would like to accomplish and make big prints to see how the artists wield their swords - you can learn a lot that way - but mostly it's just like anything else - lots of practice

good luck
SLE

 

[monk]

Monk

For what its worth

When i deal with carving in any material or even with painting I try to establish 5 planes of focus. Each plane with lesser detail than the others ie the back having the least detail. It's not necessary to have a razor sharp image from front to back - somethines that servers as a detriment although when working in the limited space of a nickel you have to get pretty picky. I work in reverse from Steve Adams to a point as I will generally not cut a deep background until last or if i need it to pull off an effect simply because thats where 99 percent of all the cussing and swearing goes on as the background or field is generally preferred by most collectors to be left or at least appearing in a pristine state.

to simplifiy this thought pattern scribe the outline of your design
then scribe in the next areas of importance sequentially

then rough carve each layer to see how things work
kind of like generating a topo map - no real necessity for detail at this juncture

when that is done its time to make a descision as to where to start
keeping in mind you can take metal off but its harder to put it back in

at this point i invariably cut the finest details closest to the viewer
then i move to the layer farthest back and work forward to the front

worst case scenerio if i screw things up I can always recut front to rear and maintain the same image without having to take off huge amounts of metal - hope this is making sense to you

once the piece is carved its time for detaiing which can be done by any number of methods/tooling
after you have carved away most of the age hardened metal you will find that you are working with a pretty soft surface which takes the impression of almost anything - so the sky is the limit on what tool you make or use to impress a texture on the surface of the coin.

dont limit yourself to thinking that any one type of tool should be avoided
try everything to see what works for you - get inventive - if the tool is not on your bench make one

those samples I sent you were not what would be considered extremely deep carvings but you saw the depth. The deeper you cut the more work you create for yourself. The descision to make the jump from Bas Relief to really deep carving is more subject dependant. Ie somethings just look better in 3/4 than 1/4 or side views. You should note that most coins on the market are extreamly shallow cuts but they get alot going on in a very limited amount of space. That in itself is another form of the art.

Some folks just cant carve shallow some cant carve deep
others cant carve at all
only a few can carve a coin that looks as good from the left view as it does from the right
fewer can carve a coin that looks good from any angle.
some carve the coins so deep you can see light though the thinkness of the metal ;-)
much of this will depend on the way your cordinative skills come together

it may take you a few coins or a couple of years to get the hang of it. it's not as easy as everyone would lead other to believe.

foreign coins are cheaper to learn on, newer nickels cut differnt than older ones
pennies are a great place to start as the copper is soft

your tools need to be extreamly sharp. remember you litterally cant cut metal you can only cleave it so the sharper the better to make this process happen.

dont take off too much metal at a time
work into each layer slowly

you may find that you have to make a limited set of tools specifically for carving as traditional graver grinds do not lend themselves to working within the confines of a coin although i have cut and shaped complete coins with a 120 i wouldnt recommend it for a beginner - stay with flats and rounds to start with - preferably with radius heels


when in doubt ask Steve Adams he is numero uno
Sam is a better source than he lets on although I believe he doesnt play much with coins anymore but i remember seeing some of his work that was very impressive and there are a lot of people out there who wish he would start up again.
Bill can tell you some good tricks too

best way is to get pics of the types of carvings you would like to accomplish and make big prints to see how the artists wield their swords - you can learn a lot that way - but mostly it's just like anything else - lots of practice

good luck
SLE

many thank yous are due. i should print this one and hang in front of the scope. i already see many mistakes i've made, but- i don't give a damn, whatever it takes, i'm going to make this work. it may turn out lousy, but i will not quit. i will do the best i can !

 

[jlseymour]

Thanks For Info

Thanks for all the time Ya'll spend on teaching, explaining to us that are just trying to get better at engraving...
What a Great Hand Engraving Cafe Forum!!!
Great Info...
Thanks Monk!!!
Thanks again Sam!!!

jlseymour