Locktite adhesive on harder inlay metals?

[pappy]

I was wondering if it would be possible to use one of the really high strength Loctite products like stud and bearing mount, not thread lockers, on some of the colored alloys that tend to work harden when inlaying. If you cut teeth in the workpiece, then took a fine artists brush and put a really thin coat into the teeth before inlaying, there should be minute gaps that the Locktite will creep into. If some squeezes out on the surface, you can just wipe it off because it won't harden in air, but under the inlay it should harden nicely. I think there is also a high temp version that will withstand about 500 deg. F. I once had a bearing Locktited on a shaft with this stuff, and first heated it up with a torch to hopefully destroy the bond, but upon trying to get it off I had to press so hard that the inner race shattered. The locktite looked uneffected, even though I heated the race up to about 800 degrees to soften the Locktite. I would try this myself, but I don't have anywhere near the skill to inlay gold.

 

[Unkl Ian]

There are some amazing adhesives available,if you know where to look.

 

[monk]

loctite is intended for very closely fitted surfaces without gaps. i'd be afraid to do that.

 

[pappy]

Monk,
I would bet that you would have many places in the undercuts that would be only .002" to .004" deep. Other spots might be deeper, but the Loctite would set up anyway. It can still have considerable holding power in thicker gaps. Even if it developed 500psi cure strength, in addition to the teeth undercut in the cavity, it should resist a lot of force trying to dislodge the inlay.

 

[monk]

try it on junk practice stuff first. xperiments on scrap never hurt. sometimes lead to great results. let us all know.

 

[pappy]

Monk,
I've never done an inlay before. I was thinking about trying brass. Everybody says this is a bear to work with.
I could silver braze a little eye on the brass, then hang the steel plate upside down and hang weights on it to see what kind of force will pull it out. You have been at this longer than me. Do you have any suggestions on what kind of metal to try that would not break the bank like alloy gold?

 

[Powderhorn]

pappy;
RUN, and Don't stop, away from brass. I don't care how many times you anneal it it is still to hard to set. I've tried it inlay brass wire into steel, and it just will not work.

 

[metalchipper]

backwards brass

Hi everybody, my 1st post. To let everyone know how dumb I am.
1. to anneal brass-- it is backward-- heat it up and then quench!
2. I think Lockite bearing mount is for ferrous metal-so a good test should be done.
3.Gold is easy to inlay. Fine silver about the same. Sterling silver works hardens real quick.
4. I have enjoyed this forum-- hope I am not banned!

 

[Powderhorn]

Mettalchipper;
The reason to run from Brass, is that even in an annealed state it is to hard to inlay. I had the bright idea to inlay some into steel, didn't work, It literally crushed the teeth in the channel that I had prepared for it. Stick to copper for practice.
Check the thread "a little fun" down below. The one on the left was started and preped , tried to inlay the brass, had to go back and reprep it in order to get the inlay to stick.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

I'm no expert in this area but I would exercise extreme caution.

Questions like "what are you inlaying into?" are fairly important. Jewellery, gun, knife etc etc. The forces that will effect it, like concussion etc. What will it be subjected to like heat, chemical etc.

Are you just trying to learn inlay techniques on a practice plate?

There are tried and true ways of inlaying metal into metal and the reason they are tried and true is because they work. It is called good practice.

The price of gold is going up but not prohibative. 1m if .25mm diameter gold does not break the bank. Fine silver is cheaper.

If you want to learn to inlay, start with the easiest metal (24k gold) and work your way up to the harder metals. It's not quite as easy as it looks and you have to refine your techniques quite a bit during the process. If you start by trying to inlay things like brass etc you may as well beat yourself around the head with a hammer a few times because it will be less painful and you will learn more!!!!!

If you have no money then stick to refining your skills with other aspects of engraving till you can afford some gold or fine silver.

Cheers
Andrew

P.S. Welcome aboard Metalchipper.
Why would we ban you?

 

[Brian Marshall]

Well, for a little different outlook... I just had a 30 or 40 year old turquoise inlaid bracelet come across the bench for appraisal. These stones were only epoxied in place. They are pretty well worn and none have come out. Looks to me like it's quite possible for flush metal inlays to stay put with one of the "new and improved" modern day adhesives.

Overlays on the other hand, are subjected to quite different forces, and being on top of the surface more likely to get knocked off.

Gonna order up a couple adhesives and try this. See what it actually takes to get these new adhesives to let go...

Brian Marshall
Stockton Jewelry Arts School
Stockton, CA, USA
instructor@jewelryartschool.com
jewelryartschool.com
209-477-0550

 

[Weldon47]

It is interesting (and somewhat amusing) to note the difference in acceptance of certain methods in certain genres. For example, in the world of firearms engraving, soldering on precious metals has always (in my limited understanding) been viewed as the "wrong" way to do it and therefore, to be looked down upon. Traditionally, these metals have been inlayed, overlayed, or damascened in place but never soldered or glued. Meanwhile over in jewelry land, turquoise and other semi-precious stones are glued in place (matrix, etc...), gold is soldered onto silver & vice versa and no one thinks twice about it. I doubt if a jeweler would take the time (time = money equation, not lack of skill or understanding of technique) to inlay or overlay. Instead he would solder, fusion weld, laser weld, (or use adhesive), etc, etc... and get on with it.
I suppose what it comes down to is this: the acceptable trade practice for the genre you are working in. Pushing the envelope is tough to do and not without its consequences. That being said if it were not for those down thru history that DID push the envelope, we wouldn't be where we are today as artists/engravers or for that matter, society as a whole.
I look forward to the outcome with interest!

Weldon

 

[Ron Smith]

There is some good advice here. brass does not work well at all, and if you haven't done any inlaying, you would be treading on next to impossible ground. Copper is good to practice with, and like Andrew said, it might have something to do with the hardness of the metal you are inlaying it into. This would be essential to the brass inlay being successful. It isn't that you cant do it. It is that you are trying to do something that is almost technically impossible, and success would depend a lot on the quality of the holding power of your undercutting techniques.............Having said that, you won't catch me gluing in any inlays. Traditional techniques work and will withstand heat, solvents, salts, etc., and easier and cheaper isn't always better........Forward!

Ron S

Ron S

 

[metalchipper]

Cheers
Andrew

P.S. Welcome aboard Metalchipper.
Why would we ban you?[/QUOTE]

Hello Andrew,

My attempts of humor is usually just that, attempts.
I was just joking about being banned.
I will enjoy posting more but right now I am working on a rush job.
Talk to you later----

 

[jimzim75]

Just a thought here,
but I have done jewellery for a long while. Generally if you want glue in something, it's not put in where your
going to use force. Because it acts like a lubricant. If you lucky it will shoot across the shop. If your not
it will be in you thumb.

Most glue product are put into jewellery in micro amounts. You are not really suppose to know it's there.
If your using Super Glue, the flute of a small drill will hold enough to do any stone.
If you using Epoxy, the tip of a tooth pick. You put the epoxy in first but you just lay the stone in place.
If you press on it, you get the tooth past tube effect.

Lock tite, it all depends its on the viscosity. Since I think it a polymer, it pretty fluid and will run into any crevice.
It wouldn't be my first choise. It works to well. There is the @#$^%$%$ factor to contend with.
Like, it set in the wrong place, oh no I got to remove that piece?!!!!!!!! Arggggggggg.

Talk to ya later,
Jim

 

[pappy]

Maybe I will try copper and do the weight test. I am going to order some silver and gold wire today I think and maybe I can get some gold too! Prices are down this morning. I won't do locktiting with 24K gold or fine silver, though.

 

[Steve Adams]

Ya know, this is a bit amusing. I am not a knife or gun engraver and have not been schooled by one, so I've not has anyone to tell me what you can or can't do with inlay. With that in mind guys, I have inlayed brass sheet and wire. It was something I had available in my shop, I wanted to learn to inlay, and like I said, no one told me it was a bad thing. Now I confess the inlay I've done is not complicated, but I've had no trouble using the brass. This has been on nickels and silver dollars to date, but I imagine steel wouldn't be all that difficult, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see steel as a problem, and I work with steel on a weekly basis. So is my use just easy and not worth comparing, or do I just not know any better, and not think of it as hard.

 

[silverchip]

I'm no expert in this area but I would exercise extreme caution.

Questions like "what are you inlaying into?" are fairly important. Jewellery, gun, knife etc etc. The forces that will effect it, like concussion etc. What will it be subjected to like heat, chemical etc.

Are you just trying to learn inlay techniques on a practice plate?

There are tried and true ways of inlaying metal into metal and the reason they are tried and true is because they work. It is called good practice.

The price of gold is going up but not prohibative. 1m if .25mm diameter gold does not break the bank. Fine silver is cheaper.

If you want to learn to inlay, start with the easiest metal (24k gold) and work your way up to the harder metals. It's not quite as easy as it looks and you have to refine your techniques quite a bit during the process. If you start by trying to inlay things like brass etc you may as well beat yourself around the head with a hammer a few times because it will be less painful and you will learn more!!!!!

If you have no money then stick to refining your skills with other aspects of engraving till you can afford some gold or fine silver.

Cheers
Andrew

P.S. Welcome aboard Metalchipper.
Why would we ban you?

I would suggest to start with fine silver.If you can inlay fine silver,you can inlay 24k and the cost is much easier to swallow.
This is the advice given to me by J.B.

 

[Ron Smith]

Steve, maybe it has to do with other factors than we discussed, to include the continuous shock of an exploding cartridge or the hot and cold ocillating temperature of a firearm, but I have had to replace inlays that have come out that I didn't do, so one of the factors of inlaying is durability, and as I said in a previous post it can be done, but for these reasons the secret is in the undercutting techniques, and the metal you are inlaying into.

If you are inlaying in soft metals, although I haven't tried it, I would think you would have to approach the job intirely different, working the metal around the inlay instead of the other way around. In working directly on the inlay metal, that is exactly the opposite because often times we don't want to disturb the perfection of the surface around the inlay and will not be disturbing that metal at all. Since we work in gun and knife steel we have a different set of problems, such as the things I mentioned before and to include knives is even a more difficult situation. You can tweek a pivot pin on a high end knife and jam the blade. Some of the tolerences will not allow any diviation or movement of that pin and it distresses the knife maker to no end to get those tolerances and then have them altered by the engraving process. This is not the engravers fault however, and is directly related to the difficulties of the metals you are inlaying. It is the nature of the job. You have to apply so much pressure (hammering) to set an inlay and work it in. This cannot be avoided and so we have to work together to make a success out of the job, but I would be interested in your methods if you would be so gracious to share them with us. I'm always willing to learn something new and would benifit us all I am sure.

Oh, one other thing. Some of the success has to to with the rigidity of the area you are working on, and the holding devices that make the job easier. It is extremely difficult and a never ending problem to find secure ways to support your work. If you have a good solid back up behind the article and there is no bounce or vibration, you have an easier time of it, and that is not always the case on knives and firearms. ...................These are some of my 'excuses" and experiences, I don't know much about anyone else's. Ha ha! ........Maybe it is just me.

Ron s