Serial Numbers on firearms

[rmgreen]

The regulation concerning the application of serial numbers requires that the serial number/letters be on the action or receiver. That these serial numbers/letters be a minimum of .003" deep. If the sn is deeper than .003" that is not a problem for the ATF. The serial numbers/letters can be on multiple parts of the same firearm and often are. If these additional sn do not meet the depth require that is NOT a problem for the ATF AS LONG AS THE PRIMARY SN DOES MEETS THE DEPTH AND SIZE REQUIRED AND IS ON THE ACTION/RECEIVER.

It is traditional on double shotguns and double rifles that the serial number appears on the TG. If this firearms is mfg in the USA or will come into the USA then this regulation MUST be meet as to the SN's placement,depth and height. Roger

 

[Beathard]

You are 100% correct. Not sure why you are YELLING in the last section of each paragraph. My point was geared towards newer engravers that are not manufacturers like some of us. The inlaid serial numbers are beautiful. I believe all letters on a high end double gun should be inlaid.

But when stating that serial numbers should be inlaid, as written by Mitch and a point I agree with, a caveat needs to be added so our newbies that hang on our every word don't break the laws in the US. The primary serial number on the action, which in some US firearms appears on an integral tang or trigger guard, must have the required depth and height as you stated.

I'm not sure if European regulation are similar it not.

 

[rmgreen]

Beathard,

I sincerely apologize for any insult my post caused you or to readers who read my post as an personal affront. That was not my intent.

Roger

 

[Phil Coggan]

So, will the depth of the serial numbers in my picture be checked when it arrives in the USA :biggrin:

Phil

 

[rmgreen]

From the depth of my heart I hope not.

Roger

 

[Andrew Biggs]

So, will the depth of the serial numbers in my picture be checked when it arrives in the USA

Damn right. They will rip out the gold and measure with a micrometer. That buzzing you hear over your house............ is the ATF drone, fully loaded, checking you out

Cheers
Andrew

 

[GTJC460]

I don't think many really understand the minuscule measure .003" is. The equivalent measure in mm is only 0.08mm. Most diamond drag machine engraving will easily reach the required depth on chromoly steel or softer metals.

I run into this situation fairly often with these folks building an AR type rifle. I've yet to meet one of these folks that can comprehend the minuscule nature of the requirement, let alone the value of a persons time doing the job by hand.

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

That buzzing you hear over your house............ is the ATF drone, fully loaded, checking you out.

The NSA, CIA, FBI, DHS, CID, NRO, and probably the DOD, DOE, and DEA already has everyone on this thread cataloged and marked for extra scrutiny anyway.

 

[Beathard]

Lol. Doc you're probably correct.

Phil, the serial number on the action is the only one. And only if the ATF enforcement guys see it.

 

[airamp]

link:

http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/firearms-industry/guides/firearms-verification-overview

 

[fegarex]

The rub comes in when you inlay serial numbers on a receiver. Somewhere in the laws it states that serial numbers can not be altered. Needless to say inlaying them is altering. The law was not written for gold inlay but in reality to keep someone from removing it. On something like a trigger guard, that is not really the receiver (at least in the case of most doubles) and the real number is on the receiver itself. Then of course if you are engraving one for the manufacturer, you are not altering it. I'm not lawyer, I just play one on TV.....
Bottom line is be careful on serial numbers on receivers.

 

[SamW]

Nah, that was a Motel 4 he stayed in...6 is too high...

 

[KCSteve]

The question is whether 'altered' means changing the physical characteristics of the serial number - i.e., inlaying it or changing the font, or whether it means making it a different number - turning a 0 into an 8, say.

My opinion is that as long as the serial number can be clearly read off of what is legally the gun (the action) and that number matches what the manufacturer has on file that you have not 'altered' the s/n as far as the law is concerned. But I'm not a lawyer and I do not work for the ATF. I'm just going by what the serial number is used for (tracking which gun is which) and we all know the relationship between logic and the law. :beatup:

 

[Dragonsfire]

I have talked on the face to face with my local ATF Agent concerning this very subject. I got the (in Gandalf's voice) "YOU SHALL NOT ALTER THE SERIAL NUMBER!" I explained that I wasn't changing the number, I don't have a Manufacture license, just the Dealer/Gunsmith FFL; class one I believe. That to inlay the material I would, LITERALLY, be making the number even deeper than the 0.003" required. Well that is a horse of a different color. The Agent contacted the two closest offices and explained my question, and got kicked up the ladder to their main office. Still waiting an answer directly from my Agent. I photograph everything that comes across my bench, including serial #s. Then cross reference the pictures with my bound book for accuracy. This may be overkill, but when dealing with any gov't agency I thought it best practices. My project went out the door without inlaying the number, disappointed the customer. I explained the quandary I am in concerning the LAW and he understood. I have 3 more pending jobs where the customers have requested the same treatment. I have looked through my books, online and found answers so vague that I'm scared to even polish the area! Did I miss something somewhere?

 

[Southern Custom]

I ran into another interesting request that needed research in a recent job. The client requested a custom serial # with 3 initials added to the end of the serial #. Even though the gun was a custom build, I didn't manufacture the frame of the pistol and therefore couldn't add to the #. That would have had to be done in advance by Caspian.
After talking with a ballistics lab friend who is much wiser than me on this subject it was deemed ok if the 3 initials were separated from the serial # by 1/8 of an inch and in their own panel surrounded by the relief.
Layne

 

[Dragonsfire]

I just received a phone call from my local ATF agent. Gotta love when they call you back! I will be receiving a letter from West Virginia asking for a description of the process (I will include pictures). Verbal confirmation that what we, as engravers/artists are doing is not what the ruling pertains to concerning serial number altering. BUT!! Having a letter on file with them and the local them is not a bad idea. I repeat this was a verbal conversation and I should be receiving a hard copy from them soon.

 

[Beathard]

Make sure that it covers not just altering, but making a flush inlay, hence no .003 inch depth.

 

[Dragonsfire]

Gerry, that was one of the questions I made sure to ask. The example I used in the question was the newer Cerakote finishes they are using. The cerakote will fill in the numbers slightly. They don't have an issue with that, as the metal underneath has not been changed. Where in our case, we are making the numbers deeper to inlay our metals, then flushing it with the surface. I explained that a 0.010" piece of gold will not fit in a 0.003" channel, so the character would be opened up to accept it. They didn't see this as an issue either, but a letter in hand will save time answering questions later. Their main concern was the removal of a serial #. In the case of a pocket/sheet inlay, then the numbers put back on; this is not allowed. Making the numbers harder to obliterate with our methods, they like! I know engravers have been doing this for years and years, but with all the hoopla surround the firearm industry today I wanted a direct answer from the Department. I will be doing a pictorial, step by step sequence of the process I use, to include in my letter back to them in W.V. with a copy going to my local offices. A little bit of work on my end might save everyone a little headache. Then again, the agent I am dealing with still thinks I etch everything....... oh well.

 

[Beathard]

I'd love to have a copy of the letter. I have one that says that engravers with manufacturing FFLs (type 7) are not really manufacturers in the ITAR sense. If someone needs it. ATF said I was not in compliance because I had not paid the $2000 ITAR tax. I contacted the ITAR people and got a letter for future ATF visits explaining that it wasn't required.

 

[Mike Fennell]

Dragonsfire and Gerry, I would like to obtain copies of your letters.
Dragonsfire, I believe you have met my brother, Ed Fennell.