there has to be a point

[joseph engraver]

I found the Engravers Café by chance. What an odd mix of ideas and knowledge are interchanged. I was looking at the posting of how a gold overlay was done, the technique was right, but what really impressed me most was the amount of equipment required to do it, pantograph, microscopes, air driven tools, and I have no idea what else. This brought a thought to my mind. Their are quite a few different type of engravers. Their are those who expertly cut squiggly line on any precious material, and they do great low risk stuff, mostly jewelry, and bangles. Then there engravers who work on harder materials, knives firearms swords and motorcycles, the work takes longer and the risk is much higher. Then there is a very special kind of engraver. The artist who has chosen to express themselves through the medium of engraving, it may be with coins, jewelry or weapons. It is all the same to this unique and very rare person who is willing to dedicate their every effort towards perfection in form, design and detail. These are the rarest of the rare, what James b. Meeks touted as the next Michelangelo of engraving, and that person could take a shortcut in the learning process with power assistance. This has proven to be true; these persons who produce labors that put lesser artisans in awe are special. It is the mind behind the tool that counts. What concerns me is some where amongst the café’s membership that special person is there, and I think that the sad thing is they will get engrossed in the mechanics of the process that they never will discover their true potential. This brings to mind a question. How can any one understand the nuances with in the form that make the differences between an English pointer and a Boxer with out first drawing in detail the Pointer and then the Boxer? The most valuable tools in an artist tool box is pencil and paper, Once you understand your subject, its proportions shapes, anatomy and detail, the tool that cuts the metal is your preference. I once tried a power assisted burin; I have no opinion of it, except that I felt the loss between the touch of the tool and my fingers and the work. I thought of my tools as extra fine pencils made of steel and very rarely did they require more than a light kiss against a ruby stone to keep them sharp. Each had it purpose, one for long lines, one for dashes and one for dots The steel I used came from Italy and is only cut up power hacksaw blade, The angles involved are what worked best for me, the handles are of my own design. Do you think that they can be patented? I’m sure that the precise angles I used helped make my work a bit better. What they were I have never known. Perhaps it was the optics? With time you find what works for you, when you do keep it a secret. I would be remiss if I did not mention my book titled A Gifted Man, memoir of an artist. Every secret needed to excel can be found within it’s 170 easy to read pages.16.95 from www.iuniverse.com I hate being a salesman! ManIfeelbetter.

 

[ddushane]

Joseph, I appreciate what you've written but I disagree with you on one point. I'm not by any means an engraver yet, but hope to be one day nor anyone that anyone should listen to what I have to say but I love being able to express myself in steal, leather, wood, or what ever the canvas may be. I make handmade knives and have for several years but still am far from the top makers. But I have grown by leaps and bounds in all areas of building and fine embellishment of articles because of others in various fields being willing to share what they have learned with me and others. This all reminds me of a knife show I was at in Dallas one year. My table was next to a gentleman in a derby hat, a thick mustache, business suit, and a huge ego. His knives were ok but not to a level for him to be as puffed up as he was. But I'm being as friendly as I can with him. A man came up & started asking me about filework that I put on the springs and blades of my knives. So I started going into detail about how I laid it out and so on through the finishing of it. As I'm talking to this man about the filework which being one of the things I learned on my own by studying others work by the Grace of God and not any hands on training, I notice this man with the derby and ego watching my every move and word with disgust. A while later someone else comes up asking about the filework again. And later on someone else. Every time another person would come up this guy would get more and more angry looking. Eventually we were both behind our tables and he asked me what in the Hell I was doing giving my secrets out to any & everybody that walks up and asks. I told him I didn't have any secrets and he said I was stupid and we didn't visit the rest of the show. I didn't feel stupid and laughed at him. He was not impressed. My point is I'll live probably 70, 80, possibly 90 years, How may knives can I possibly build in that amount of time, slow as I am not a great deal maybe 500-600 or a little more or less, that being said I believe that there is room for a lot more fileworked knives in the world than my measly 500-600 or so. My desire is that it is done right, my desire is that if it is going to be on a knife, like the engraving or any other fine embellishment it should be done right. I use to pipeline for a living years ago before messing up my back & having 9 back surgeries, I loved welding and fabricating, if you will apply yourself there can be an art in welding, making that puddle of hot molten metal go where you want it to go making every ripple consistent. I was at one time certified for 18 different oil companies and did everything I could to make my welds beautiful to the eye and spotless through & though for x-rays sake being confident they would stand the test of time. I had company men that would ask for me personally for there jobs because they knew I would do them a fine job. There use to be sign on the wall of the company office I worked out of that said " long after the high price is forgotten, long after the long hrs and waiting is forgotten the work and craftsmanship will still remain, be sure you do a job you'll always be proud of". So I have, but I could have never done all that I have done if it weren't for the many men that Have shared their so called secrets with me, raising me up into what I am today. I am by no means a self made man, I by the Grace of God and the help of all the men & women He has blessed me with in my life as teachers and leaders along with so many on this forum that are so kind to share their wealth of knowledge to all, am who I am. And I thank God and everyone who has ever helped me do the things I do, who have ever taught me anything or pushed me harder than I really wanted to be pushed so that I could excel in what ever I want to do. Thank you for your post and for listening, Dwayne

 

[jimzim75]

Hi Joseph,
You shouldn't worry to much about us getting caught up in technology.
Most of us don't forget the art side, after all that's what drew to engraving
anyway.
I had a chat with an English style jeweller about beaders once on orchid.
He thought that everyone should re-sharpen beaders with a beading plate
and heating the tip then re-tempering . In so many words and not as blunt
as I straight it here. My opinion was that it wasn't worth it.
He was spending $12.00 of shop time making a $1.00 tool.
Beside if you can sharpen a carbide drill to a round cut you can to do
the same job a lot quicker. I sure he still using the beader plate.
The point is not to deny the use new methods or alternates. Use them all old and new, then "get on with the job".

The new methods we use to sharpen gravers is done to get
consistency, so we know what to expect when we start a cut.
We can also experiment with tool geometry to get other type of cuts.
The big thing is that we can pass it on to others to increase the size of
engravers cutting pallet. The better all of us can cut, the more secure is
our art, and the whole art will improve.

Can we patented tool geometry, well
Steve Lindsay has, but I don't know how effective that is.
I haven't heard of him suing anyone for patented infringement.
Somehow I don't really think he really ever wood, except for GRS,
Muller, or one the large graver companies wanted to use his ideas.
Some how I don't think they would offer his style of point anyway. It's more a
system of sharpening system. It comes with the whole package if
you use his airgravers.

What we do is get new engraver up an running in a about a year,
rather than taking five to ten years. A lot of what your lamenting as lost
human potential is saved in this manner. Engravers that could be great
hard mental artist are not defeated by tools.

An air tool doesn't make your finger go numb. It's different style of
engraving. It's has as much sensitivity as push engraving but in a
different way. Airgraving allows you to make some pretty wild
cuts that can't be done in such a big way in push engraving, without
a lot of re-cutting.

So I hope you enjoy the forum, and welcome from all the different
types of engravers.

Jim

 

[Ron Smith]

I tnink that Joseph is trying to explain the pleasure of being able to use the simplest tools with the same skill as the power assist. I can relate to that, where the most important tool in your arsenal is your charactor. I tried to explain this in my book, but I don't think you can relate to it until you have spent a lifetime with the old tools and the time it takes you to get the experience with them to produce master class work in all phases of the spectrum.

As I see it, the one most imposrtant thing in this trade is educating the public to be aware of what it takes just to learn to cut an accurate line, time after time after time, and the perfection of your sense of touch. I feel that many who are engravers now, would not be willing to go the extra hundred miles to use the old tools, when they can do it rather quickly with the modern ones. I have no problem with that, except for the pain and love associated with the loss of the knowledge of this fine art in it's purist form.

We have to survive in the economy around us in this time and space, and it is hard enough making a living at it as it is with the world set on mass production and all of the business requirements, cost of space, air conditioning, and everything else it takes to run a business as a result of that thinking and relative prices.

I have a question for you Joseph. Where would you be if you hadn't gone to Italy and they shared ther knowledge with you? Would you have had the stamina to learn it on your own? No doubt, you have sacrificed much for your knowledge and truly, no one can teach you how to engrave really. They can get you started maybe, and help along the way, not to dimish the value of that. I think that is the primary benifit of the modern tools and the willingness of those who love the art to pass it on. It is definately an act of love for the passion that dominated my life and yours, and ours.

The only way the public is going to demand our services is if they understand it better, and see the commitment for quality, so we should all enlighten everyone we can. Many don't make it as occupational engravers, but just going through the schools gives them a greater appreciation for our skill. It is not just my skill that makes me what I am. It is those who appreciate what I do that accomplishes that. Who would I be if no one cared? You and I Joseph, lived in a time when this was exactly the existing attitude of the public, and only a small group still clung to the beauty and passion of quality work. That is changing because of the public interest, so as much as I am at a loss and a little sad to see the old tool methods die, I love the art more, and those who are in it. I know there are those who will feel exactly as you or I, and want to experience the purist, most gratifying form of the art, but they will be few and probably fewer as time goes by.

Therefore, John B was accurate when he said it is the man behind the tools. They (the tools) are only the means of expressing your ideas, and it is your experience that makes you good at what you do. And let me tell you, the value of the knowledge on this forum is priceless, and it is one of the very most important tools to our modern engravers, because it is our pain that they won't have to endure.
They however, at the same time will not know the pleasure of conquering such a difficult challenge. It is only those who have walked the whole road and spent many years of struggle who will be able to relate to your heart and mind, but if you take ego out of it, or jealousy, or envy, you have a love that extends throughout the engraving spectrum and this is the power that drives us all...........We are all united in the love of the art and it's practitioners, and its collectors who love it without understanding, which is bigger than any one of us alone............And that is my two cents on the subject.....................Ron S

 

[jimzim75]

Well said Ron,
Your a craftsman that made his own path. No more need be said, on my part.
Jim

 

[John B.]

As usual Ron, your word have the power of truth and understanding.
You are one that has more than paid the freight and opened the path for many.
Best. John B.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

I quite enjoy these philosophical exchanges as they’re quite stimulating. So here’s my views on the subject at hand………………………………….

The tools lay inanimate on the workbench. The burin, push graver, power assist, hammer and chisel all content with each others company. All comfortable in the knowledge that they can each turn a piece of metal into a hideous mess, or, a work of art. Beauty or despair. All they need is the steady hand to guide them in either direction.

The hands lay slack at our sides ready to pick up the tool knowing that their masters, the mind and soul, can guide them into acts of creativity or destruction.

Has anything really changed?

The most important thing is that tiny little bit of graver tip that digs into the metal. The rest of the tool is there only to give support to that tiny face and heel. The force behind it is of little consequence. Piston, spring, muscle or hammer blows. The graver point knows that if it isn’t sharpened properly then the power behind it is meaningless. The graver point also knows that no matter how good the cut, if the design is poorly conceived, then the graver tip can’t make it look any better.

The graver tip doesn’t care if it’s sharpened on a stone by hand or a diamond wheel with a holding fixture. Because the graver tip knows that if it’s out of harmony with the hand that guides it, then disaster will strike. But when the hand and graver tip are united, then powerful forces can be unleashed and treasures made for generations to come.

The lines that are transferred to the metal by computer transfer, pantograph or by hand are meaningless if not cut intelligently by the hand that drew them. If the lines are poorly thought out then it doesn’t matter how accurate they are, as they won’t stand the test of time.

The naked eye, loupe, magnifying glass, optivisor and the microscope all see exactly the same metal canvas. The various sets of human eyes that look at the canvas all see it differently.

Meanwhile in the corner of the workshop lies the two of the most powerful and yet most humble things invented by man. Pencil and paper. They have started wars and brought lovers together and they are both safe in the knowledge that all of the beauty created by the engraver started with them.

Power assist tools will get you to the first rung of the ladder very quickly but your understanding of the complex art of engraving is slower to catch up. It still takes considerable time to intertwine knowledge, understanding and harmony with the chosen tool, into skill. What level of skill those hands reach comes from the mind and soul that guide them.

The tools may look slightly different today, but harmony of the tool in the hand and the driving force behind them has changed little for the last several thousand years.

So has anything really changed?

Cheers
Andrew

 

[jimzim75]

Okay. One more word. So what the whole discussion boils down to is.
You should probable know how to draw and layout with a sense of
balance. Tradition methods give a great sense of accomplishment because
push gravers are so intimate with the process. Is that about it. Okay.
But I'm not throwing away the power stuff or the computers.

Jim

 

[truehand]

Andrew, bang on! you craft words as well as you do metal!

 

[joseph engraver]

JimZim ,My friend I think you have missed the point.

 

[joseph engraver]

I sincerly thank you,there is hope.

 

[joseph engraver]

My admired friend and Maestro,
I cannot answer you as to where I might have been, had I not had decided to enter Giovanelli’s School of Engraving.
I can only tell you that after completing the nine months of schooling at Bottega dell’Incisione, Magno, Italy, I was hired by US Repeating Arms as the Master Engraver for their Custom Shop, in New Haven, Ct.
Who would ever believe that such schools exist now in the U.S.A, because only with a comprehensive art school you can be a complete engraver. This is the point I have been trying to make, but did not know how to put it into words.

 

[Bill Tokyo]

I think I missed your point too

I can't see the slightest difference between an engraver using power tools and a carpenter using a
powered saw. The quality is what you build, not the tools you use to build it.

Bill

PS The exception is people who like one tool or process over another just because their own personal preferences or for feelings of great versimlitude or authenticity.

 

[Ron Smith]

Bill, you are talking about result, if I percieve you right. I think Joseph and I are talking about motivation. There might be no difference in the work from any tool you use, only the dedication level is considerably different, a major factor I think. Does that not indicate the measure of motivating power and magnitude of commitment from one method over another? And that measure of sacrifice one is willing to endure is relative to his drive, passion, determination, patience,etc. What one man might take the time to learn because it is easy, would definately indicate a difference in ones commitment level to the art. Another man might not be willing to even make that commitment. And then there is the man that will sacrifice all his econimic benifits for the love of the art, live at the bottom of the food chain, or whatever it takes. His commitment is greater. Commitment is at the root of your endeavors. It determines the speed of your advancement, and the length you are willing to go to conquer. It also I think, makes a difference in the impact of your work, but that coud be my imagination and I truly want to be accurate in my comments.

And I am not critisizing those who choose to use the machines, only trying to help those who have those advantages understand those differences in commitment. Actually like you, I think the end product is the important thing, because the mind and attitude that wishes to maintain a high standard in todays throwaway culture is required to sacrifice enough. I am an advocate of whatever it takes to get a quality product, so I use every method in my repretouire of knowledge. Time and effort is of no value to me. I have always done the very best that I could with current abilities, and a desire to not let anything stop me in my progression to achieve surperior results. This helps me to minimize limitations and expands my ability to create. That I think, is what it is really about not to exclud the business end of trying to do this as an occupation, a different approach altogether. That passion to be creative by ones own independence, motivation, and individuality is the point. To express ones self and submit to the beauty and grace thereof, and training the body and mind to conform to its requirements is a staggering achievement with any tool, but to make a living at it is another matter and another measure of commitment.

It is truly a blessing to us to be so privelidged and gifted with the attitudes to endure it, for within the different measures of commitment lies the power of that commitment, and also the power and impact of a high quality product that speaks to us all, our peers, the collectors, the students, and the public. In all of this, educating public awareness is essential to our survival as economic requirements are puttng us further from their unserstanding unless we keep them aware. The bar is constantly rising requiring more sacrifice. Ain't it wonderful????!! .................Yes it is!!
This has been an interesting and stimulating discussion, and now I have to get back to work, my passionate lovers of the art, friends........enjoyed the chat guys..............chip away!.......Ron S

 

[Big-Un]

I understand the concept of being the artist and creator of beautiful pieces of work, and the motivation to do so, but I have a very serious problem with actually beginning to cut a piece. The motivation is there, the artistic skills are there, but I get so nervous before actually starting cutting that I sometimes feel physically sick. My hands shake and I start having serious doubts about my ability. Once I start the first cut, all seems well; its getting through all the drama to that first cut that takes it toll, both physically and mentally. Do any of you ever have those thoughts and feelings, and if so, how do you handle them? This still happens after all the years I have been engraving and I need to know how to get rid of those jitters.

 

[joseph engraver]

Try hypnotisim,find a pro to guide you. I used it and found it worked.

 

[FANCYGUN]

Found what Joseph? Hypnotism?

No matter how long I have been engraving...the first WHACK with the hammer is always the hardest on any new job. After that, the rest seems easier.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Big-Un..............You’re in good company. Sir Lawrence Olivier, the very famous and world acclaimed British Shakespearian actor suffered such bad stage fright the he would actually throw up before each performance. He did this till the day he died. I think he lived into his middle 80’s.

Sorry about that…….good news and bad news all in one sentence.

The first cut is definitely the hardest as it kind of sets the tone for the rest of it. I generally sit there for a few minutes spinning the work around and figuring out the angle of attack, which direction to start in and try and figure out the “flowâ€￾ of the cutting.

Cheers

Andrew

 

[Ron Smith]

Big-un, Don't feel alone my friend. After forty some-odd years it is still the same way with me also. I would say don't fight it. It is the way you body prepares itself and fine tunes its senses for the task ahead, as long as when you put that graver to metal you become the "rock", you are okay. Go with it instead, give it its time and then go ahead and don't let it hold you back. It does sound a little drastic to be getting sick over it. I get the usual "butterflies", but it isn't enough to sap my courage. Maybe that is just experience. If you can handle your tools, go with that confidence............Overcome!......Ron S

Ron s

 

[John B.]

Used to have the first cut jitters.
NowI just just jump right in.........and then spend the rest of my time trying to cover up my mistakes.