To Blue or not to Blue

[Biorka]

I am in the process of engraving my first gun. This is an old and well used gun that I purchased new in the 90's. The first lesson I learned was to try to engrave a “newâ€￾ gun. This gun was pitted and scratched and took a long, long time to achieve a decent 600 grit finish. I have inlayed the gold border, did the heavy cuts and most of the shading. My original plan was to have the gun (Browning BPS) blued at this point. I would then remove the bluing from the area which will receive the bulino game scene and proceed with the bulino.
But now I am having second thoughts about bluing and would like some expert advice. Is bluing an engraved gun just a matter of preference? It seems it would just “wash outâ€￾ the contrast developed by the fine shading. Many, if not most of the guns I have seen on the engraving web sites appear to be un- blued and I wonder if this is the most popular finish or whether these guns are shown prior to bluing. I am assuming the prime reason for bluing a gun is as a rust barrier? and bluing is preferential on a gun that is to be used in the field or at the range??
Your help suggestions and critique on my project thus far will be much appreciated!
Thanks!
Barry
Sitka, Alaska

 

[Phil Coggan]

Hi Barry,
Thats very nice clean scrollwork, if this is what your thinking of puting on your gun with gamescenes also, 'blueing' or colour hardening will hide it, having said that some people like a blued game scene, I don't, it just hides all of your work. Gold work is a totally different thing.
Whether you leave the colour hardening on or polish it off you will need to laquer it, to protect from rust.

Phil

 

[Marcus Hunt]

I find one of the nicest finishes is to have the gun colour hardened and then remove the the colours. It gives the steel a beautiful, soft finish that's quite different from a gun in the white or a cyanide hardened one.

The bluing you are talking about on a gun like this is probably a chemical black i.e. boiled in caustic soda and although it fills the engraving slightly it won't effect this type of scrollwork too much. The game scene is a different problem as you'll have to remove the blue after engraving and risk damaging the bulino. And then, as Phil says you have the rust problem. If you are going to black/blue the action what about gold inlaying the birds?

 

[Ron Smith]

Barry, Phil was referring to a bake on lacquer, I think. It is very durable and is a common treatment. Scenes show up better if you can french gray, as it kills the shine of the cuts and makes the work more visible. So, you could blue the gun, selectively gray the scrolls and scenes and you would have a knock-out eye stopper.
By the way, very nice work and destinctive work.

Oh, and you can get anything you need from Brownells. Brownell's rust remover and bake-on lacquer (I would suggest the matte lacquer rather than the clear, but that is optional). You can do the bake-on process in your oven if the wife won't throw you out of the house. All you need is within twenty degrees accuracy and don't go over the recommended temp. Follow instructions. It is fairly easy. Selective graying is tedious and you need steady hands. You might want to try it a few times and keep a bottle of saturated soda close by so you can kill any out of place bluing rapidly. Saturated soda ( Soda and water). the soda and water mxture isn't critical, just a lot of soda in water and a fluffy brush to apply it and you are in business.

you can also play around with masking techniques, but make sure there aren't any bubbles in it anywhere. that is a disaster. You would have to start all over or gray the whole thing.

Ron S

 

[FANCYGUN]

Barry
What my fellow engravers have said to you is all very true. The scroll is nicely cut and layed out.
What I have had success with as far as removing blue or case colors, is a very small paint brush and Lysol Toilet Bowl Cleaner. It removes the blue and the colors also. But the neat part about removing the colors is that it really doesn't remove it all. It just fades it out and you do get a very slight colored hue misting over the scene. Then of course rinse with baking soda to neutralise everything and give a protective coating.

Marty

 

[Phil Coggan]

Barry,
Blue your gun with 'gun blue', use one of these, or simular, http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Garryson-Garryflex-Abrasive-Block-20009.htm (I use the wine colour one) to polish all of the blue off, you can control the colour the steel will be by the amount of rubbing you do. The block won't remove the fine lines but obviously only rub until you get the desired effect, then spray with celulose/acrilic car laquer, it dries very quickly so dust particles are limited.

Phil

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Barry, that engraving sure is fantastic.

I also find this thread very helpful.

Being your first gun, if you decide to send it out, be sure you got a gun smitty that's completely comfortable in achieving the finish you expect. After all, there's so much more at stake than the gun .... there's your work which goes way beyond that. I recently sent out one of my personal projects to a color case hardening guy and the job came back pretty bad. I removed the colors (or lack of) with some very light polishing and stumbled across the type of finish Marcus is referring to. It's now got an interesting antique look which I like.

Here's a question for one of the gurus.....

I may leave it but if I change my mind and hot blue over what's left of the case hardened finish, will it come out ok or should I get it back to white metal?

 

[John B.]

Barry,
Abrasive blocks like Phil is talking about are available from Ngraver Co 860-823-1533.
They are called Engravers Erasers.

Best regards, John B.

 

[fegarex]

Barry,
A real nice job on that!
Everyone has given you good advice. I might add if you are going to selectively gray the scrolls that you mask it. I guess I don't have the guts as some of the others. I use model paint or even fingernail polish. I still treat the area like it isn't masked just to be on the safe side. The problem I had if I didn't mask it was even the fumes from the blue remover seemed to run over the scroll and remove the blue. Masking requires more work but it can save a reblue if you aren't careful.

 

[Biorka]

Thank You all very much for the kind words and good advice. It is quite special for a “wannabe” to come here ask some questions and receive the unselfish answers, encouragement and advice of some of the best in the business!
My original plan was to send the receiver off to Turnbull to charcoal blue (black) it. I am under the impression that this method of bluing has less of the fill in effect to the engraving as the “chemical blue” that Marcus mentions?? It is rather spendy but “why get off in Chicago if you want to go to New York!” Is it typical for engravers to do their own bluing? I know nothing about it. I am intrigued by the abrasive method of bluing removal suggested by Phil it seems it would be more controllable and less prone to have a wreck due to operator error? But what effect would this have on the shading with-in the scrolls ? I do have the blued barrel. I will experiment with the chemical and abrasive methods on it to see what feels best. I didn’t know about the “lacquer" methods for protection but it makes perfect sense especially here. I live in the Tongass Rain Forest 100 feet from the ocean. I engraved one side of the receiver flipped it over to do the other side and there was already a shadow of surface rust on it!
Once again thank you all for taking the time to respond.
Barry Burger

 

[ED DELORGE]

To christopher and Biorka, Christopher if you want good bluing it must be lightly polished with 600 or 400 grit, the case hardening you have will most likely not give you a good result, but if you are doing the bluing it wont take long to find out, about fifteen minutes in the tank at about 290 to 300 degrees and you will know.

Biorka, Hot bluing does not fill the engraving at all it just changes the color of the metal from white to black. When I am engraving a piece, every evening I coat all of the metal parts with W-D-40, it does a great job of preventing rust and washes off easily for bluing or plateing (the proof is in the putting) try it.
Your work is beautiful, that is obviously a browning BPS. I have always wanted to engrave one of those in 20 guage after re-stocking with some nice wood.

Good luck.
Ed

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Hi Ed,


Well, here's the sad sad story of my Model 92 replica. I had it polished at 1500 with the intention of bluing. (I really like the look of a high polished & blued finish) I decided to send it out for case hardening instead, expecting it to come back with some clear coat on it. The color case guy (won't mention any names) took the liberty of taking 400 grit paper to it. After the fact, he told me that the colors wouldn't take unless the surface was roughed up and that it's not a real Winchester anyway. With my engraving all scratched up, I stopped payment on the check and then took off the botched color job and now have a dark gray antique look. It's not all that bad but the scratches are driving me nuts. I think I'm gonna anneal the thing, re-polish up to 1500 or 2000 and then freshen up the scroll before bluing. I suppose if I go back to square one, I'll know exactly what to expect when it comes out the tank.

Barry, my apologies for asking questions and telling this story in your thread. You really bring up a great issue here and it's really helped me out with one of my projects that kinda derailed. I think the finishing process for the new engraver can be one of the most confusing steps. There's a ton of info out there about engraving, techniques and such but finishing methodology tends to remain a mystery. I probably miss a lot of stuff here in the forum but I have a tendency to get caught up in a project or two and drop off the radar for a few months. Anyway ... I'm right there with you on this one. You ain't alone my friend.

Chris

 

[Marrinan]

Chris,
There a a couple of real horror stories out there, on the forums, about sending guns out and some polisher ruined the whole job requiring recutting the whole job-Maybe Ron Nott will tell his story or provide the link-might be time for another heads up on the issue-Fred

 

[Phil Coggan]

Someone asked me a few days ago "Who polishes and laquers your guns after hardening"?
Well I do, and have since the early eighties, the reason.......back about that time, in a period of about two years I had more than ten guns over polished after hardening. About seven guns had to be annealled, re-engraved and then re- hardened. About 30% to 50% of the game scenes / portraiture had been wiped off. This was done by one man in the factory.
Since then I don't take any chances, the guns come back to me, I polish them, ink them if they need it and laquer them.

There was also a time when there was some bad steel about, impurities caused holes to blow out in the plates, this was a nightmare especially in the middle of a game scene.
Sometimes a hole of about .3mm. on the surface opened out to about ten times that size below. Also flaking metal was possible.

I have also had problems with raised and flush gold guns. Clamping a raised gold gun in between lead jaws is not good enough, i've had raised gold border lines and scroll come back flat. I always use a thick leather.

When a gun goes back to the factory after engraving it's worked on by as many as half a dozen people, some are more cautious than others, it only takes one person to put a gold gun down on a bench full of tools or shavings!

Another reason I finish the gold work after hardening is that sometimes the gold engraving comes back lacking definition, a little worn looking.
I think the reason for this is that the heat process gets rid of those microscopic burs around the cuts and cuts down on the vitality and freshness that it once had.

Phil

 

[fegarex]

Barry,
As Ed says, the chemical blue does not fill engraving, only just changes the color. The process is really just a controlled rusting/oxidation process to put it in simple words. I don't think you need to go to Charcoal blue for what you want.
As far as the final metal polishing before blueing.... This can vary. The higher the polish, the harder it is to get a "black" color. If they are good, they can get the color but it takes the right time and temperature. A final finsh of 400 or 600 will usually give a darker color because the grit acts like little "scratches" and reflect the light better to give more of a black color. The high polish is real pretty but sometimes doesn't show the engraving as well either. It just depends on the look you want. Many Colt SAAs are finished in the "royal blue" that is highly polished and deep black. Just make sure you are working with a with someone that knows what you want.

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Hi Fred, Ron was the first friend I called for advice after I got that '92 back. We've got an "engraveable / not engraveable" thread, why not a "finishable / not finishable" thread? There's stuff you can't even drop in a tank cause it will disintegrate.


Hi Phil ... I was wondering about gold inlay and case hardening. That's a huge help because I just wouldn't have even take the chance. I also encountered one of those porosity welds in a Mauser trigger guard that had been repaired. The graver plunged into the cavity and I swear I saw Jimmy Hoffa peek out. Sometimes the question is not whether the piece is engraveable or not, it might not even be blueable. Sometimes you just don't know what people will bring in or send you. I could be in my buddy's gunsmithing shop a lot more engraving guns but until I get to know this business a little better, I will only work on certain things including the custom rifles he builds.

Anyway ... Ron has got a great gunsmith for case hardening and I'll probably use him in the future for the stuff the gunsmith I work with doesn't do.

Hey Barry ... why didn't I think of that. Get in touch with Ron Nott and ask him for the name of his gunsmith. Ron swears by him.

Well, have a great day folks!!

Chris

 

[dclevinger]

A great place to find top notch finishers is the ACGG. They have the Directory of Custom Gunmaking Services which lists the gunmaker and their specialty. You may have to pay a bit more for the work but the knowledge that they know how to work with engraving is more than worth it. Like our group, most of them are happy to answer questions and offer tips as well. Just my .02

David