Cheque (and gun)is in the post!

[katia]

Hello everyone!
First of all, I'd like to thank Gargoyle. Thanks to your excellent website and its useful links I have just discovered the Engraver's cafe . It looks like this is going to be a nice place to hang around and I can't believe no one had thought about it first.(well,maybe someone had,it's just that I might have been oblivious of it,silly me!)
So,this is my question:
I have been a self employed gun engraver for just under 10 years now,and I despair about one aspect of the business;
Gunmakers booking me for guns that never turn up when they should .
Here is last year's scenario: in December 2005 ,someone had booked me for a side by side,which would have been followed by a pair of sbs 20 cal,followed by an o/u .All of these guns were to be deep scroll engraved with game scenes.
The first gun was supposed to arrive in January 2006 and all the other would have followed.
I thought:"Ah,excellent ,this is the first half of the year sorted ,no need to worry,I will not have to eat pasta with lentils every day for a while(a tasty ,cheap dish I sometimes cook when"the cheque is in the post"for 2 months).
Well,dear reader,(oops I'm being a bit dramatic here!) how wrong was I!
To cut a long story short , the first gun finally turned up 5 months late,though I was assured regularly that "yes ,the gun is almost ready ,it will be with you shortly" every week.
Let me tell you,I was not a happy bunny ,as I had turned down jobs in the belief that I was going to be very busy for a while.And when I realized I was being messed about,it was of course too late as those jobs were gone already! Damn(to put it mildly)!.
And to top it all,later on that year I had the nice surprise of being paid with a cheque without provision. Fantastic!
So I started 2007 thinking"well,this year has to be better,hey?"
But no,it's always the same old story. I frankly have got enough of this aspect of the business,and I'm wondering if doing the gun engraving part time combined with another job would be a solution. Don't get me wrong,I LOVE engraving,but my mortgage people don't like me to be a month or two in arrears.
So,yes ,this is my question : do you have the same problem and what is your solution ?
I thank you for taking time to read my rant and reply to it if you can!

 

[monk]

i'm very fortunate i suppose. i really don't do a lot of guns. i do agreat variety of engraving, even- jeesh, don't tell anyone- machine work ! most all my gunwork comes to me thru a custom gunbuilder. he's a no nonsense guy, and he knows my work. we click together. we have a great working relationship, and there's no baloney about timing a job. when he calls, the gun is in my hands within an hour or so ! i'd put the guilty party on notice: retainer fee up front. gun late- you lose your fee. no questions asked. i personally would not work for someone that did this to me ! i'm thinkin maybe you should work for more than 1 gunbuilder. not knowing your area , perhaps you should pursue other engraving venues to keep your hand fresh. there's lots of different stuff to be worked on other than guns. tira does motorcycles and monkey wrenches. i've done tooth fairy bottles and toilet seats ! hell, there's lots more in between that can be done, and there's money to be had.

 

[FANCYGUN]

This is exactly why I like a deposit in order to put a gun or whatever on my engraving schedule. YES.they will never arrive when you expect them also. act of life. I do hate when I am waiting and counting on a job like you are doing and then they call you two months late and say they sold the gun and don't need it engraved. This is once again why I want a deposit to get on my waiting list. it sort of helps keep everything on the up and up. Even with this.never count onanything until you have it in hand. Tough business but you have to luvit.
The pros and cons of whateveryone is doing with this was discussed ona previous thread. Look it up, It's very intersting seeing everyones frustrations.

 

[Thierry Duguet]

Hello Katia,

Sorry to hear about your problem. As FancyGun I also require a deposit to get on the waiting list and it is lost to the client if the gun does not arrive in time. I did learn long time ago the promise do not pay bills, a job does not exist until you have money or item in your hand. As for bad check, it happens. If a client lies to me for 5 months I think I will send the item back COD Cash Only when finish.

 

[Ron Smith]

Katia, do whatever you have to do to develope respect from your cleints. Don't let them push you around. Believe in yourself. Those are some excellent solutions from the experienced among us, as much as I understand the need for volume and the pressure that puts upon you and your willingness to accomodate your customers. Deal with them in a neutral spirit and they will not resent you, but rather they will respect you. Make terms with them that is fair to both of you, not just your client. Stand your ground! ....................and that is my two cents on the subject.....................Ron S

 

[BrianPowley]

Katia, as I read about your dilemma(s), I'm also learning about your passionate willingness to overcome these obstacles. You are very fortunate for not displaying animosity and spewing out "venom" toward the business of engraving.....the paying customer can be a strange animal.
Eventually, you'll come up with your own rules that may not be foolproof, but they will be a pretty good guard rail against broken promises and bad cheques. You have a good attitude----so far.
I've never taken a deposit on a complete gun,but it never got out of here unless it was paid for.
(I am also fortunate in the fact that guns are about 1/3 of my engraving business)
Any cheques had to "clear" through my bank before the gun went anywhere, however, I've become a believer in FancyGun's logic about deposits these days for several reasons:
1.My time is valuable---a deposit separates the curious from the serious.
2.The customer also has a financial stake in the process. The gun he/she sends (or intends to send) may be a gun that was given to them. It may not have any monetary value to them personally. Money doesn't just talk----IT SCREAMS
3.A deposit makes me better at my job. I'm working and getting paid for something I love to do. We all work our best when we know that the money is coming in.

 

[monk]

ah, mr smith spoke volumes. most newcomers will take a sort of low key approach and let the "moneyman" do all the talking and set all the conditions. this is crap. these people need you. right up front you must show that you are on a 1:1 relationship with the customer. engraving is a skill that takes years of dedicated practice to develop. it's also a business. from day 1 you must be professional, or you'll never be treated as one. get a nice deposit up front. if they balk at that, you must wonder about their intentions and ability to deliver on ther side of things. seriously, no retainer--- no deal !

 

[katia]

Oh ,thanks to all of you for your advices! I 'll try and reply to you all in a methodic way!
Monk:yes,it's true ,I am mainly a sporting gun engraver. I have done the odd jewellery engraving,but that is all really. I mainly work for 3 or 4 gunmakers that usually provide me with scrolls and game scenes engraving.I do the odd recuts for maybe half a dozen gunsmiths,and I must say that those small jobs are better than the big ones in term of turnover and value for money.
Your point about stretching my skills to other things than guns is a very good one.I am just wondering if there is the same market in the UK for adorning other items of metal than guns or jewellery as there seems to be in the US.
For example ,I had previously explored the possibility of engraving on bikes ,but it looks as though it is not a very popular thing here.Maybe I 'm wrong and did not do my research properly,and I might give it another go as I would love to work on bikes! I actually picked up engraving after reading an article about an american engraver who specialized in customising bikes!(Oh,I wish I could remember his name,as his work looked brilliant!)
-Fancygun: I'm looking forwards to be reading the previous thread about that kind of problem.Should be an interesting read! And the retainer looks like the way to go,though I tried it once and was told that this is not how gun engravers work here in the UK! I suspect I'll never do any business with that person again,which is fine by me .
-Thierry: Thanks for the advice! By the way,I think we went to the same school! Did you have Mr Florent as a teacher?
-Ron:you nailed it on the head:Yes,I need to learn to gain respect from my customers. And thanks for your
2 cents!
-Brian:well,your point about peace of mind and good performance when knowing that you are being paid
for your job is just oh so true! There is nothing worse than wondering if you actually should be working on another job because that one might actually get paid on time!
Monk(again); it's true It's not as if you could ginfd engravers at a drop of a hat,in every street corners! i am guilty of having let the "money man " do the talking in the past,though believe me,I have taken steps to change that.But it looks like i need to take a lot more steps! Maybe a walk,or a gentle stroll!
Anyway,thanks to all of you! I am now going to put all of this into practice!

 

[Dave London]

Katia
Welcome to the forum, hope the input from others help you with the problems. Dave

 

[RES]

Unfortunally that does happen, but as others have said....specific times should require down payments.
Be careful to promise more than you can deliver, or to sell yourself short. Try to work with the gun maker
or customer on "times". Don't be too tough....some day you may need some leeway also.
I was suppose to have a gun delivered in Jan. but it was delivered the end of March, then in April,
I ended up in the hospital and was laid up for almost 3 months.....I gave the customer some leeway,and
now he's giving me some....so hopefully everything will work out now.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Ktia

Welcome aboard.

As well as getting a retainer you could also run a first in first served policy.

In other words accept all the work, with a retainer, and whoever's gun turns up first is the one you work on first. If you let those two rules be known to the customer(s) in advance it may sharpen them up a bit and it leaves you with a steady work flow. Then they have only themselves to blame if the work is not completed to their time frame.

Also the gun dosn't leave the workshop till paid for in cash or cleared cheque. No exceptions.

Again if you let the customers know all this in advance then you would have to question why they would balk at it.

It's been my experience that people will only treat you how you let them.

Easy for me to say I know, but worth a try.

Good luck on that one

Cheers
Andrew

 

[SamW]

Always ship the gun or item after payment in full (check cleared). Most states have a uniform code of commerce that allows the private sale of the item if payment isn't received in due time (check with your BBB). I once had a customer I couldn't jar loose from his money for about 8 months. I finally gave him 60 days to pay or the rifle would be "subject" to private sale. The money came on the 59th day. Also lost payment due to chapter 11 bankruptcy once so use this policy with corporations also!

 

[monk]

Oh ,thanks to all of you for your advices! I 'll try and reply to you all in a methodic way!
Monk:yes,it's true ,I am mainly a sporting gun engraver. I have done the odd jewellery engraving,but that is all really. I mainly work for 3 or 4 gunmakers that usually provide me with scrolls and game scenes engraving.I do the odd recuts for maybe half a dozen gunsmiths,and I must say that those small jobs are better than the big ones in term of turnover and value for money.
Your point about stretching my skills to other things than guns is a very good one.I am just wondering if there is the same market in the UK for adorning other items of metal than guns or jewellery as there seems to be in the US.
For example ,I had previously explored the possibility of engraving on bikes ,but it looks as though it is not a very popular thing here.Maybe I 'm wrong and did not do my research properly,and I might give it another go as I would love to work on bikes! I actually picked up engraving after reading an article about an american engraver who specialized in customising bikes!(Oh,I wish I could remember his name,as his work looked brilliant!)
-Fancygun: I'm looking forwards to be reading the previous thread about that kind of problem.Should be an interesting read! And the retainer looks like the way to go,though I tried it once and was told that this is not how gun engravers work here in the UK! I suspect I'll never do any business with that person again,which is fine by me .
-Thierry: Thanks for the advice! By the way,I think we went to the same school! Did you have Mr Florent as a teacher?
-Ron:you nailed it on the head:Yes,I need to learn to gain respect from my customers. And thanks for your
2 cents!
-Brian:well,your point about peace of mind and good performance when knowing that you are being paid
for your job is just oh so true! There is nothing worse than wondering if you actually should be working on another job because that one might actually get paid on time!
Monk(again); it's true It's not as if you could ginfd engravers at a drop of a hat,in every street corners! i am guilty of having let the "money man " do the talking in the past,though believe me,I have taken steps to change that.But it looks like i need to take a lot more steps! Maybe a walk,or a gentle stroll!
Anyway,thanks to all of you! I am now going to put all of this into practice!

katia: i have found to my amazement, if you sometimes just engrave some sort of sample piece and show it around to enough people, that in and of itself can create a "market" or demand for your work. better print some business cards. a very valuable thing i did some time ago; i began taking digital fotos of some of my jobs. i also began photographing older photographs from years ago. i organized these fotos on my hard drive and began to burn foto cd's to hand to prospective customers. not expensive whe purchased in bulk, and burning the cd's takes very little time. people really seemed quite receptive to this idea. it has worked very well for me. go to local shows and events of all types, they all want engraving of some kind ! good luck !

 

[KCSteve]

Just after I got my engraver I was working at a co-op gallery I'm in. I was working on a sketch for that practice plate I posted a picture of (the geometric design) and a lady who was there to buy something from the other artist working that day saw it and demanded to buy it. I explained the situation but she still wanted something like that. I've got a little key tag with it + a name 'laid over' the design. Looking at it, it's both horrible and beautiful. It's pretty neat in and of itself but I know how it's supposed to look.

I'll call her today so she can see if she wants it or not (if not it's a practice plate so no big deal).

As far as I can tell, people like engraved things. Time will tell.

 

[Tom Curran]

In Engraving, and every other art, you have two problems. One is the engraving itself. Some of us can do this easily, and for others it's a challenge and takes all of our worldly effort to produce our work.

The other problem, which I seldom give thought to, is Marketing. You must find a market(s) where you can get paid well enough to keep doing what you've worked so hard at. Marketing is a job all of itself, separate yet just as important as the artistry. Without the market, there is no funding for the artistry.

If you can think about this as creatively as your engraving, you will come up with ideas where and how to sell your work. What kind of people might be interested in what you do, where do you find them, when are they likely to spend their money, etc.

In any business, you must set some guidelines to protect yourself, and your customers. Money up front is always good, especially important with first time customers, and to cover materials. I use a first come first served in my business, but I give preference to large jobs, fitting smaller ones in between for a change of pace.

Tom

 

[KCSteve]

Among other things (yes, I use that phrase a lot), I'm a member of ICCA - the Independent Computer Consultant's Association. It's a trade association for computer consultants (no surprise there).

I always explained it to potential members like this: "If you don't know the technical side, you're hosed. If you don't know the business side, you get hosed. ICCA is there to help you with the business side."

For most artists the business side isn't too much of a concern. You do your work and feed it out through galleries and/or shows. Get 'big' enough and it turns into a business though. Engraving (from my vast knowledge since I got my machine June 16th) is a bit trickier because a lot of it is commissioned work. People want their gun / knife / jewelry engraved, not one you picked up. That pushes you into the business stuff much sooner.

 

[Thierry Duguet]

Hello Katia,

Yes Mr Florent was one of my teacher with Mr Dossin. Se were Delcour and Grifenier but only time to time. When did you attend the school in Liege?
I should point out that a website is a great way to promote your work, you can direct people requesting picture to it, you can use it display your latest work, receive message from potential client and best of all it is inexpensive if you learn a little HTML.
An other way is to find a "Finders", this people who find work for you and work on commission (I give them 10%). They refer potential client to you and you pay them when you receive your deposit. Yes I am can of lazy when it come to promoting my work. An other thing you can do is speculative work, the pay off is much higher but so is the risk, there are different way to do it. You can do it all and get all the profit, you can find an investor who get part of the profit after the sale or work with a dealer, he provide the piece you do the work and you share the profit proportionally to your investment.
I was told: "If you charge twice as much and got half the work you make the same amount of money but got more free time". Do not be afraid to be too expensive some people like to brag about how much they spend, I lost more client because I was not expensive enough than because I was too expensive.

BTW, you might be amuse to know that in 20 years I did get one bad check (my client made it good within one week), I never send anything COD, I never request full payment before shipping, I always get my final payment within 1 week to 10 days even from companies or I stop working for them. Keep in mind that even if you need your client they too also need you. Company make money on your work, often more than you do yourself (one manufacturer I work for make 300% on my work), they do not want to loose a great and easy source of income, you might be the "little guy" but you are not necessarily in a weak position to impose your rules.

 

[katia]

Well,thank you all for your excellent suggestions!
I now am on the right path to become rich beyond my wildest dreams through the media of engraving!!!
Well,let's not get carried away too much here,but you all gave me some great tips to be able to pay the mortgage with less problems ,and that is all I want to be able to do really.
So,here it goes:
Andrew:first time first served:I shall insist now on that aspect. Gunmakers love to book me (us,I should say I suppose) a long,long time in advance.and when it all goes pear shaped,they do expect me to be available when they need me and deliver the gun ASAP.No pressure! I do remind them that I can 't perform miracles,but it all seems to be in vain. But: I am now thinking about writing everything down in a kind of contract ,as it will show how serious I am ,and that I do not want to be messed about anymore. The main concern that I have though is that it might isolate me from the other gun engravers ,as I am not aware of any such things going on in the gun trade here. When I've had money problems in the past ,my peers have told me that it was just "one of those infuriorating things ",but that the gun trade has always been like that here,and there is not much we can do!! Well,I think a revolution is badly needed.
Sam:Unfortunately,I am not in the US,so I am not sure What would be the equivalent to your system.I will find out.
Monk: I like your CD idea!
Tom: yes,that's it. It's all very well doing nice scrolls and game scenes,but if you cannot market your business correctly,well then it all ends in tears!
KCSteve:Both horrible and beautiful? Wow,now I am intrigued! BTW, I did like your hose analogy!
Thierry:well,I have already PMd you now,but for those who'd like to know,I too attended Leon Mignon and had Mr Florent and Mr Depre(z) as teachers. Ahhh,those were the days.....
Once again,thanks to all of you !

 

[KCSteve]

Katia

Beautiful because it worked, with the name 'floating' over the geometric pattern.
Horrible because I know how it's supposed to look.

Ah well, if she holds on to it over time just the fact that it's my first commission should make it worth hundreds and hundreds of cents.

The customer was pleased and thought that her friend would be pleased as well and that's what really counts.