sanch
Elite Cafe Member
A quick look at a 10 minute sketch I am developing all comments welcomed.
Attachments
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20150304_212056-1.jpg
My humble attempt
- Thread starter sanch
- Start date
mdengraver
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
That's a good start, now keep on drawing and designing to get better and better.
dlilazteca
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Your origin i can see the tip, but its growing from thin air, it needs something. Look at Sams progression examples he posted not to long ago, or Didyoung post just recently, dont worry about the fancy stuff focus on drawing the backbones first.
These are your backones that you drew.
These are your backones that you drew.
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dlilazteca
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Not the best, still some things i dont like, was done on my phone but do you see the origin, where it all stems from.
Sanch what takes us days to draw some will do in minutes and 10x better, just plain old practice is all thats needed.
Saludos,
Carlos
Sanch what takes us days to draw some will do in minutes and 10x better, just plain old practice is all thats needed.
Saludos,
Carlos
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sanch
Elite Cafe Member
Not the best, still some things i dont like, was done on my phone but do you see the origin, where it all stems from.
Sanch what takes us days to draw some will do in minutes and 10x better, just plain old practice is all thats needed.
Saludos,
Carlos
yup I get it and will work on it more as I go "still moving forward" thanks for the advise as said this "sketch" was about a ten minute so I will continue to develop it and update later. I am going to branch out from the origin of course! As you put it,it's floating in its current iteration also I was trying to keep from cluttering to much but like I said "moving forward! "
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the leaf on the far right-- must be much closer to the design-- as if it was "growing" out of the design. as you do it here, doesn't look good at all. practice with the pencil may be boring, but bringeth many rewards.
sanch
Elite Cafe Member
agreed, but I intended to "fill" in that space as you can see how light it is in the sketch. also I wound up getting rid of it all together the design itself is progressing and has changed already as im sure it will keep doing till I feel im cluttering it up!
sanch
Elite Cafe Member
Updated
OK so I transferred the first one to some vellum and developed it further here it is as always all comments are welcomed and thanks for the advice!
OK so I transferred the first one to some vellum and developed it further here it is as always all comments are welcomed and thanks for the advice!
Attachments
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20150305_204710-1.jpg
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi Sanch
What are you trying to achieve with this drawing????
It's kind of nothing. It's not scrolls, it's not leaves and it's not a combination of the two................. I can't see where it's headed.
cheers
Andrew
What are you trying to achieve with this drawing????
It's kind of nothing. It's not scrolls, it's not leaves and it's not a combination of the two................. I can't see where it's headed.
cheers
Andrew
sanch
Elite Cafe Member
LMAO!! Thanks Andrew! and you are wrong it is SOMETHING even if its wrong and nothing in your eyes it is an experience that I obviously require! I do appreciate your honesty and the fact that I am not drawing "scrolls" or "leaves" or a discernable combination of the two tells me I must practice and I will continue doing so. as for this "piece" I am going to develope it more scroll or no I feel it's going some where! if not in the end it will be a lesson learned no harm no foul.. thanks again!
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi Sanch
A suggestion........abandon this drawing and start from the beginning. Yes, you have the skill to draw. That is fairly evident. But it needs some discipline and practice. Once you have those under your belt then you can start free styling and developing. At the moment you have put the cart before the horse so to speak
Drawing is a discipline like any other. You can muck about and take the long path and achieve nothing.........or you can take the shorter road that you actually learn something from. Learn the basics of scroll development and the balance between leaf and scroll..........this is the basic foundations of engraving. So work toward that end by focusing your attention on the basics. In other words, a disciplined approach to learning the subject.
Even if scrolls aren't your thing.......still learn them. There are so many variations of scroll and leaf that will lead you onto other things.
Cheers
Andrew
A suggestion........abandon this drawing and start from the beginning. Yes, you have the skill to draw. That is fairly evident. But it needs some discipline and practice. Once you have those under your belt then you can start free styling and developing. At the moment you have put the cart before the horse so to speak
Drawing is a discipline like any other. You can muck about and take the long path and achieve nothing.........or you can take the shorter road that you actually learn something from. Learn the basics of scroll development and the balance between leaf and scroll..........this is the basic foundations of engraving. So work toward that end by focusing your attention on the basics. In other words, a disciplined approach to learning the subject.
Even if scrolls aren't your thing.......still learn them. There are so many variations of scroll and leaf that will lead you onto other things.
Cheers
Andrew
sanch
Elite Cafe Member
Andrew, never let it be said that I didn't listen to experience. I looked at the monstrosity again this morning and decided to chalk it up as a lesson learned already nothing more to come from it so why feed more time to it. This is one of those moments a person realizes they are getting good advice and needs to heed it,thanks!
I was thinking the same thing as Andrew. Not sure where you were going with the design, which is kind of cool looking and flowing and has an interesting shape. At this point I'm not seeing a good engraving design, but I applaud the fact that you're spending time drawing. Bravo!
Haraga.com
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
It will look great relieved and sculpted. It's a very nice design.
Marrinan
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
There is a world of engraving without a single conventional scroll. Some of the best work being done has no scrolls at all. Many scenes have no scrolls at all. Because someone's style uses unconventional design elements does not make it wrong, Many of the younger engravers are abandoning the us use of old school scroll work for there own style. I say good luck to them. I see more and more work being done with more freedom of design. I think they should be applauded not embarrassed by those who have limited themselves to conventional design. It would be more helpful to adjust thinking and comments to what a particular engraver is trying to achieve. Fred
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
What......encourage and develop crap design and random drawing from beginners that haven't a clue what they want yet ????? Maybe pat them on the back and say "well done" because they got out of bed in the morning and scribbled a few things on paper...........what a load of bollocks!!!............You teach all beginners at anything the skills to get them where they want to go. That takes self discipline and working constructively. With those disciplines and skill they can do anything. Without the discipline and skill they are lost forever.
I agree that scroll and leaf are not the only designs to be engraved...........But aimlessly drawing random designs will get you nowhere. By disciplining yourself to learn these things you develop the ability to focus on the fundamentals of design structure. This understanding and skill set can then be transferred to other designs.
One of the problems with art schools today is that they teach nothing. It's all about freedom of expression with no discipline. You may as well give a kid a pencil and tell them to do what they want for 3-4 years and then at the end of it say well done and hand them a degree. They then move into the real world and nobody wants to employ them or their crap designs. A lot of the technical colleges are the same. Some of the jewellery schools are sending out kids without a clue. Yes they can solder but their taste is all in their backside thinking low end craft is some kind of art.
If people want to waste their time and energy on random drawings that will get them nowhere. Then I'm happy to let them do so. If they are seeking a "well done, that looks great" for a crappy design, then they will not get it from me. There are plenty on the forum that will do that..............However if they are after a bit of practical advice that will get them going. Then I'm happy to give it.
Sanch.......the best advise I can give you is to buy Ron Smiths Advanced Scroll drawing. Study the book and work through the section about scrolls and leaves. Use it like a work book with exercises. You don't actually have to read every word in it as most is self explanatory. This will give you a great foundation to work from. Once you have the skills you can then branch out to other forms of design. Learn the basics first then you are good to go for anything you want
Cheers
Andrew
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Haraga.com
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Andrew, first let me say that I enjoy looking at your engraving. Next let me say that your designs appear to me as random as they come. Personally I think the picture in post 8 would look nice relieved and sculpted.
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi Leonard
Thank you
My designs aren't random. Far from it. In fact most (not all) use scroll/leaf work for the initial layout and main lines. Scrolls are the medium that carries the design. By the time the design/engraving is finished some of the lines are invisible but they are there. Also the same principles of white and negative space (balance), harmony and flow etc etc are all there.
This is exactly what I'm getting at....once you have learned a particular discipline and set of principles................ then you can carry that over to other designs.
There is always the exception to this and that is natural talent, of which there are few. The rest of us just have to keep practicing.
When I did my sign apprenticeship, my boss was merciless. If the lettering was not right, it was wiped out and done again till it was right. This ground the fundamentals into our heads. After a while he relaxed with us and let us explore different things because we started getting a grip on what was good and what wasn't. Toward the end of our apprenticeship we were left to our own devices. The same went for our polytech tutors. They were quick to slap our wrists if we started getting out of line. But if we stuck to the principles of good design then they encouraged us to explore further. Far from being a hindrance in our development it taught us good solid life long skills that we could build on.
Anyway.....people have written libraries on this stuff
Cheers
Andrew
Thank you
My designs aren't random. Far from it. In fact most (not all) use scroll/leaf work for the initial layout and main lines. Scrolls are the medium that carries the design. By the time the design/engraving is finished some of the lines are invisible but they are there. Also the same principles of white and negative space (balance), harmony and flow etc etc are all there.
This is exactly what I'm getting at....once you have learned a particular discipline and set of principles................ then you can carry that over to other designs.
There is always the exception to this and that is natural talent, of which there are few. The rest of us just have to keep practicing.
When I did my sign apprenticeship, my boss was merciless. If the lettering was not right, it was wiped out and done again till it was right. This ground the fundamentals into our heads. After a while he relaxed with us and let us explore different things because we started getting a grip on what was good and what wasn't. Toward the end of our apprenticeship we were left to our own devices. The same went for our polytech tutors. They were quick to slap our wrists if we started getting out of line. But if we stuck to the principles of good design then they encouraged us to explore further. Far from being a hindrance in our development it taught us good solid life long skills that we could build on.
Anyway.....people have written libraries on this stuff
Cheers
Andrew
Crazy Horse
Elite Cafe Member
I think it has style and grace. I'm no expert, but I have eyes. Andrew is suffering from that southern sun. I wish he had offered constructive criticism rather than a negative response. Surprised Sam didn't call him on it.
None the less, It's got style and flair, and some folks will like it for what it is.
None the less, It's got style and flair, and some folks will like it for what it is.
Dad of 3
Elite Cafe Member
What......encourage and develop crap design and random drawing from beginners that haven't a clue what they want yet ????? Maybe pat them on the back and say "well done" because they got out of bed in the morning and scribbled a few things on paper...........what a load of bollocks!!!............You teach all beginners at anything the skills to get them where they want to go. That takes self discipline and working constructively. With those disciplines and skill they can do anything. Without the discipline and skill they are lost forever.
I agree that scroll and leaf are not the only designs to be engraved...........But aimlessly drawing random designs will get you nowhere. By disciplining yourself to learn these things you develop the ability to focus on the fundamentals of design structure. This understanding and skill set can then be transferred to other designs.
One of the problems with art schools today is that they teach nothing. It's all about freedom of expression with no discipline. You may as well give a kid a pencil and tell them to do what they want for 3-4 years and then at the end of it say well done and hand them a degree. They then move into the real world and nobody wants to employ them or their crap designs. A lot of the technical colleges are the same. Some of the jewellery schools are sending out kids without a clue. Yes they can solder but their taste is all in their backside thinking low end craft is some kind of art.
If people want to waste their time and energy on random drawings that will get them nowhere. Then I'm happy to let them do so. If they are seeking a "well done, that looks great" for a crappy design, then they will not get it from me. There are plenty on the forum that will do that..............However if they are after a bit of practical advice that will get them going. Then I'm happy to give it.
Sanch.......the best advise I can give you is to buy Ron Smiths Advanced Scroll drawing. Study the book and work through the section about scrolls and leaves. Use it like a work book with exercises. You don't actually have to read every word in it as most is self explanatory. This will give you a great foundation to work from. Once you have the skills you can then branch out to other forms of design. Learn the basics first then you are good to go for anything you want
Cheers
Andrew
Man you are so far out of line with your first your first sentence I don't know what to say other than I have ZERO respect for someone that calls someone elses art crap.
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