Beginner - Novice - Expert

[sam]

Brian Marshall sent me this and I find it really interesting. It was sent to him by a European goldsmith and pertains to professionals, not hobbyists.

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Beginner takes from 2 to 4 years (a few stay here forever)

Novice - making the more "complex" mistakes in your work, because now you can (and think you know it all) - 4 to 10 years

Expert - at least 10-15 years+ (some never make it, even after 30 or 40 years!)

Over here (in the US) you are an "Expert" or "Professional" in less than 2 years...

 

[sam]

I will say that when I was in the 4-10 range I thought I knew a lot more than I did. Now in the 35+ year range I realize how much I don't know.

 

[MICHAEL]

Sam, I think a lot of that realizing you don't know everything, comes with age/wisdom.

 

[mtlctr]

its true, I think in most skilled craft type work. Off topic a bit but related i think my experience. I used to train people to operate Acme-Gridley screw machines. Some could never learn to grind tools, cutoffs, drills etc. a few could catch on & improve. a very few could catch on & excel. the Acme co. told us it would take 3-6 years to get a competent operator, our Co. tried to get in done in 180 days. It ususally failed. I loved that job, learned something new everyday.:hammer:

 

[Lee]

In Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers he talks about the 10,000 hour principle. If you have the aptitude and drive it takes roughly 10,000 hours to achieve what we as engravers would refer to as a Master level. One of his examples was the Beatles and the years and many hours spent in Germany playing nightclubs to fine tune their act before stardom. Fascinating book.

 

[jerrywh]

I think it's that way with everything in life for most people. There are some experts in 3 or 4 years like Bill Gates and Farnsworth.

 

[SamW]

I started studying and practicing engraving in '67 (No...not 1867) and have learned just how little I have learned...plus I realize how enjoyable it would be to have another 48 years to double what little I do know. Cannot understand how anyone could possibly be bored with life!!

 

[jerrywh]

I feel the same as you SAM. There has to be something wrong with people who do nothing and are bored. I can't imagine how a man can live and not have a hobby or build anything.

 

[Thierry Duguet]

"Over here (in the US) you are an "Expert" or "Professional" in less than 2 years"

Don't you think there is something wrong with that? In a country with so few engravers (relatively) don't you think that the number of official (FEGA sanction) "Masters" is ridiculously high, don't you think that the standards for such a recognition should be higher and therefore more meaningful?

 

[sam]

"Over here (in the US) you are an "Expert" or "Professional" in less than 2 years"
don't you think that the standards for such a recognition should be higher and therefore more meaningful?

...Yes....

 

[Dad of 3]

Being very new to engraving this is more of a genral statement about skilled work. I'm not sure a time stamp fits with any certain level. Take a baseball player for example. I have taught a ton of young kids to play over the years. Some learned faster than others none of them had some number of hours or days or weeks or years to be able to play at a high level. Another is golf, my youngest son drives the ball 400 no problem with yard sale clubs that he was given. A ton of golfers spend years trying to get to the level he started at first swing. I have seen 30 year bladesmiths that have a ahrd time producing a quality piece and yet there is a young man not far down the road that is producing very high quality work and has been doing it for less than 2 years.

 

[Brian Marshall]

<"Over here (in the US) you are an "Expert" or "Professional" in less than 2 years... ">

I take the responsibility for that line. Unfortunately, people often give themselves "titles" here - in the USA - without the skills or experience to back it up.


I also think that instead of "Novice" a better translation would have been advanced apprentice/journeyman. And for "Expert" - he probably meant the equivalent of Master. The word "Professional" is kinda vague. To me it seems to mean that whatever the "profession" is - it is done for a living, not as a hobby. It's whatever you do to to put the meat & potatoes or beans & rice on your table every night. NOT something you do after you get off from your "real" job.


Brian


I too, would have liked to see FEGA require a minimum number of years (15+) or other more stringent requirements to the Master title. (Such as a dozen or so formal classes & workshops or short apprenticeship)

But since I've never bothered to get the title myself and have neglected to be present to vote - what I think or would like - is moot anyway...

My reasoning for a minimum number of years (and/or formal classes/workshops/apprenticeships) would be to allow for a person to see and experience more varied situations, styles, and make the MANY mistakes we ALL have to make in order to truly know a little bit about what we do for a living.

No matter how skilled or gifted you may be - you cannot make and learn from all the neccessary mistakes (or take enough classes/workshops or apprenticeships) to learn what you need to learn - in a year or two. That's simply not enough time.

Serious lessons (and mistakes) take some serious time. And then you need more time to think about what you learned and how to improve.


Brian


Personally, I'd prefer my surgeon to have gone to school and have had 15 to 40 years experience before slicing me open - to one who has only a year or two of experience...




The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why. – Mark Twain

 

[atexascowboy2011]

And Mozart composed his Fifth Symphony when he was still sucking on a nipple !

There ARE exceptions to "The Rule".
This talk is geared towards the "Average" human, NOT a prodigy .

 

[Brian Marshall]

Jephro,

There was no rule stated. There is common sense - and a limit to how many classes/workshops and different mistakes (read: learning experiences) you can cram into one or two years. That is fact. As is the number of practice plates and finished jobs you can get done in a coupla years.

Filling one 5 gallon bucket with practice plates probably takes a year all by itself. Can't remember who originally said that that should be a requirement? John Barraclough, maybe?


(Nor is there an "average" human anywhere on this forum. You gotta be more'n a little bent to be an engraver at ANY level! This is all borderline padded cell conversation... the rubber room is just around the corner...)


To my knowledge we only have one prodigy on this forum - and that would be Phil... or is it Sam, or Mitch, or Chris, or ????

Why don't you ask his/their opinion? At what point would/should a person be considered a "Professional", an "Expert" or a "Master"?


And you'd better hope that when you need some serious surgery - yer doc ain't a prodigy in diapers, still suckin' on a pacifier...


Brian


The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why. – Mark Twain

 

[rayf24]

Interesting subject my 2 cents worth is you never ever stop learning till they closer the lid on your box it just comes down to does one have the ability to listen to the teachers and take it in or be able to put it into practise. :thinking:

 

[atexascowboy2011]

Okay "Brain",

My "Post" was being typed while you were posting your post.
My post was in reference to Dad of Three's post.

It appears you've still got your panties in a wad.

 

[Brian Marshall]

Ray,

There are sayings similar to that in many cultures. In Mexico they have one that kind of translates to: "The day you learn nothing new, is the day you should begin looking for your cemetery plot."


B.

 

[diandwill]

You never stop learning, but requiring 15+ years would mean that Shawn Didyoung, JoAnn Ryall and Danae Cresswell, among others, would automatically be exempt from consideration. All three of those have worked extremely hard and advanced rapidly. Didyoungs shading is among the best anywhere. Joanne's watches are a thing of beauty and Danae is doing some fabulous knives, and other work.

I find it hard to say that it has to take X number of years. If you excude the process, apprentice-journeyman etc, in place in Europe, What is the defining moment that an engraver becomes a Master? It has been said that when they have their own students, their own shop, but there is a moment when their instructor, their Master says that you are good enough, you go in front of the other Masters and present yourself and your work, and if you measure up, then you are a Master. It shouldn't matter if that is 5 years or 50, When you can do that level of work, in a variety of styles on an assortment of materials, you should qualify.

I am a professional because much of my job, owning a jewelry store that features hand engraving, is that engraving. I consider myself more of a technician, maybe a journeyman, in that if I can see the lines I can cut them. A lot of my work is cutting transfers and much is original design, but I live in an economy that is still depressed and while I try to improve with every job, and to give the customer his/her money's worth and more, it still has to be in an affordable manner. It is just a reality of my life and my location.

 

[diandwill]

When Europe's apprenticeship program was set up, that was the only game in town, the only way to learn. Today there are classes, youtube, dvd's, books and more. It is a different world, and it is the results that should be judged, not the path taken to get there.

 

[JJ Roberts]

Thierry, When I started engraving it was hard to find someone to guide you all I had was Meek's book and a dream in a hope of become a decent engraver sure would had liked to have started with a master engraver maybe in Europe but with a wife and three young children I had to figure out things all by myself did get with engraver and gun builder Roy Vail and was able to get some help.The best part in the forty years of engraving is all the friends that I have made. J.J.