Question: Silver Ring Engraving

[muknidav]

Hi everyone,

This is David from LA (CA). I am currently deeply interested in with silver engraving for a couple of months. I make a lot of research from google and archived my findings.

My aim is jewellery engraving - just ring actually. This is a special ring and it consists some arabic numbers or letter. It also consist some special characters (like the star of David etc.) but 90% of the content is numbers. I am attaching some pictures of a sample ring. Please see it enclosed.

I first try to figure out how to engrave numbers on ring. Actually traditional way (carving) seems a bit difficult for me because i am so fresh on this art. So i would like to ask if there is a possibility just punching the template on silver? If yes, how to obtain that template? For example can i produce it on my own at my home (I have Optimum D140X250 metal lathe (see picture enclosed) ), its material must be carbon steel or any other? I am looking for a tool like a screwdriver, but the tip of it is shaped like a number. When i placed it on silver and punch it from top, shape of the number should be engraved on silver.

I will be looking for the helps of professionals like you guys.


Thanks in advance for your replies.

 

[oiseau metal arts]

from what its sounding like you are wanting to STAMP the designs into the ring. the lathe will not really help you to make th stamps.
http://www.engraverscafe.com/showthread.php?12426-stamp-by-step...

these are all really simple designs. hand writing basically. youd be far better off just drawing them on and engraving them.

aside from that, casting the rings would be your other option, though the engraved ones would look a lot better.

 

[Brian Marshall]

You ever get up north? I am in Stockton, CA. It would take me all of about 5 minutes to show you what you need to do to make stamps.

About two hours to write it out.....


Brian

 

[dhall]

Hi David,

I think your first instinct about engraving the ring is probably correct. A fairly simple engraving tool would be all that you would need to carve/engrave all of the characters on the sample ring you've included in your post (in addition to some way to hold the ring while engraving, and, perhaps, some magnification to see all of the details while engraving). It would take quite a long time to fabricate all of the variously-shaped punches you would need to stamp the characters in to the ring, in addition to the time it would take to accurately perform the punching/stamping. Except for a small number of characters, a lathe is not going to be your preferred tool for creating punches. In an ironic twist, a slightly broader range of engraving tools' shapes would probably be best for carving your punches (compared with the single tool most engravers would probably choose to use to do an engraving like this), so now it's going to take mastering multiple engraving tools to make the punches. Like I started out saying, engraving the ring is probably the best choice. If you did choose to make the stamping punches, a simple carbon steel that can be hardened and tempered would suffice.

If you just need one, or a small number of rings engraved, hire the expertise to get it done to your satisfaction, by a competent engraver. Or, plan on spending a bit of time (months + ?) learning how to do the engraving yourself, and some money to gear-up. There are many threads/posts on this and other forums about how to get started, how much it can cost to do so (from least expensive, on up). Search around a little more, and maybe that will help you decide which path will best get you where you are going. I guess the variables that need to be ranked in some sort of hierarchy (which will help you sort and decide which way to go) would be: time, money, expertise or ability, and desire. Most projects are budget or calendar driven (due date, or done for a certain price, or a combination of both), but your motivations or needs may be different.

I mean no disrespect, and you should not infer that I don't believe you would be able to eventually perform the work you are describing, but from your initial questions, you have a fairly steep technical hill to climb, regardless of the esthetics of the engraving you're desiring to be performed on the silver rings. You are unclear on the proper technique to use, the implications of that choice, the nature of the material you would use to create the tools you are contemplating using, the mechanism by which you might craft the tools, in a material with which you probably aren't familiar or skilled. And, you are self-professed at currently not being confident in your abilities at the method which seems to be the most appropriate and direct method for achieving your goal. I look at all of the conditions (challenges) you are facing at this point in time, and that is why the only real solution seems to me be to hire the expertise of a competent engraver to do this work in a timely and cost-efficient manner.

In all fairness, though, I'm looking at this project through my own perceptions and filters, and the things I don't know, are how motivated you are to learn to do this yourself, how much time and effort you are willing to expend before you get anything close to a reasonably acceptable result, and how much money you are willing to spend to tool-up for this enterprise. Only you can provide those answers. So, think about it, do a bit more research, and good luck, whichever path you choose.

Best regards,
Doug

 

[Roger B]

David,

You mention that you are interested in ring engraving - my suggestion is to take the time to learn what it is you want to do - you will carry those skills with you onto future projects. IMHO making the individual stamps will take soooooo much time and accuracy in placement of the stamps could be haphazard at the best.

I don't know what you know and what you don't know in manufacturing jewellery. If you want the instant result and don't want to spend the time to learn engraving, carve the ring in wax and have it cast - but then there are another set of skills to learn.

Roger

 

[diandwill]

http://www.gravograph.us/engraving-machines/M20-Jewel.php

Gravograph sells a machine that will accept the computor graphics, and engrave them on the outside of the ring just as you want them. It isn't cheap, but if you are planning a large number, will certainly make it possible.You will still have to acquire the rings, they may be orderable from Rio Grande or a local jewelry manufacturing trade shop can make them. LA abounds in such places...in fact, there are, I'm sure, such places in LA that have the machine already, and could make them all for you.

If you want to do them yourself, and don't yet have ANY of the knowledge/ability, you are in for either a very long or a very steep learning curve. Either way, you will be spending a sizable amount of money. It looks like a fun project for the right shop, but is not going to be cheap. Good Luck.

 

[monk]

your questions tell me what you don't know. there's no cheap, easy, fast way to do this. you may end up wasting a lot of time, and perhaps even money. i'm curious as to why you wish to do this. i know i'm being a bit nosey, perhaps even rude-- but just curious.

 

[muknidav]

from what its sounding like you are wanting to STAMP the designs into the ring. the lathe will not really help you to make th stamps.
http://www.engraverscafe.com/showthread.php?12426-stamp-by-step...

these are all really simple designs. hand writing basically. youd be far better off just drawing them on and engraving them.

aside from that, casting the rings would be your other option, though the engraved ones would look a lot better.

Dear oiseau metal arts;
Thanks for the advise. Yes that is what i am actually looking for. However the tutorial you sent is for just a regular stamp (which you stamp o paper). But i am looking for a stamp which can dig into silver.. That is the key point i think and as far as i understood, manufacturing it is not so easy but i want to learn anyway.

 

[muknidav]

You ever get up north? I am in Stockton, CA. It would take me all of about 5 minutes to show you what you need to do to make stamps.

About two hours to write it out.....


Brian

Dear Brian Marshall;
Thank you very much for your invitation. I will hopefully visit you even i do not manufacture stamp. Just to meet and chat with you.

 

[muknidav]

Hi David,

I think your first instinct about engraving the ring is probably correct. A fairly simple engraving tool would be all that you would need to carve/engrave all of the characters on the sample ring you've included in your post (in addition to some way to hold the ring while engraving, and, perhaps, some magnification to see all of the details while engraving). It would take quite a long time to fabricate all of the variously-shaped punches you would need to stamp the characters in to the ring, in addition to the time it would take to accurately perform the punching/stamping. Except for a small number of characters, a lathe is not going to be your preferred tool for creating punches. In an ironic twist, a slightly broader range of engraving tools' shapes would probably be best for carving your punches (compared with the single tool most engravers would probably choose to use to do an engraving like this), so now it's going to take mastering multiple engraving tools to make the punches. Like I started out saying, engraving the ring is probably the best choice. If you did choose to make the stamping punches, a simple carbon steel that can be hardened and tempered would suffice.

If you just need one, or a small number of rings engraved, hire the expertise to get it done to your satisfaction, by a competent engraver. Or, plan on spending a bit of time (months + ?) learning how to do the engraving yourself, and some money to gear-up. There are many threads/posts on this and other forums about how to get started, how much it can cost to do so (from least expensive, on up). Search around a little more, and maybe that will help you decide which path will best get you where you are going. I guess the variables that need to be ranked in some sort of hierarchy (which will help you sort and decide which way to go) would be: time, money, expertise or ability, and desire. Most projects are budget or calendar driven (due date, or done for a certain price, or a combination of both), but your motivations or needs may be different.

I mean no disrespect, and you should not infer that I don't believe you would be able to eventually perform the work you are describing, but from your initial questions, you have a fairly steep technical hill to climb, regardless of the esthetics of the engraving you're desiring to be performed on the silver rings. You are unclear on the proper technique to use, the implications of that choice, the nature of the material you would use to create the tools you are contemplating using, the mechanism by which you might craft the tools, in a material with which you probably aren't familiar or skilled. And, you are self-professed at currently not being confident in your abilities at the method which seems to be the most appropriate and direct method for achieving your goal. I look at all of the conditions (challenges) you are facing at this point in time, and that is why the only real solution seems to me be to hire the expertise of a competent engraver to do this work in a timely and cost-efficient manner.

In all fairness, though, I'm looking at this project through my own perceptions and filters, and the things I don't know, are how motivated you are to learn to do this yourself, how much time and effort you are willing to expend before you get anything close to a reasonably acceptable result, and how much money you are willing to spend to tool-up for this enterprise. Only you can provide those answers. So, think about it, do a bit more research, and good luck, whichever path you choose.

Best regards,
Doug

Dear dhall;
Thanks you very much for your informative reply. Actually i did not think that wide this issue.

I am starting this hobby tı make a job. There are plenty of people around me who are looking for this kind of ring.

May be the starting point might be a simple engraving tool however i am not sure that it can engrave such deepnes which i can see on images (arabic number seen on images i add on the first post). But as i result i will continue to make researches to find the best.

Because i will eventually turn this to a job, i can spent a bit money at the start. For example up to $1500. I will search the best for my budget.

Casting is an another option. I have seen plenty of videos on youtube about silver casting but i am not sure fluid silver can penetrate that small arabic number holes on wax. I can not determine. If you have an opinion, i will be glad to hear it.

 

[muknidav]

David,

You mention that you are interested in ring engraving - my suggestion is to take the time to learn what it is you want to do - you will carry those skills with you onto future projects. IMHO making the individual stamps will take soooooo much time and accuracy in placement of the stamps could be haphazard at the best.

I don't know what you know and what you don't know in manufacturing jewellery. If you want the instant result and don't want to spend the time to learn engraving, carve the ring in wax and have it cast - but then there are another set of skills to learn.

Roger

Dear Roger B;

Thanks for your reply. I will eventually learn casting i guess. But i am not sure fluid silver can penetrate that small arabic number holes on wax. I can not determine. If you have an opinion, i will be glad to hear it.

 

[oiseau metal arts]

Dear oiseau metal arts;
Thanks for the advise. Yes that is what i am actually looking for. However the tutorial you sent is for just a regular stamp (which you stamp o paper). But i am looking for a stamp which can dig into silver.. That is the key point i think and as far as i understood, manufacturing it is not so easy but i want to learn anyway.

im sorry but you might have misread something somewhere. that one was made from hardened O1 steel, and has been used in silver, brass, 416 stainless, other blade steels (before heat treating), and even leather.
ive been making these for other jewelers to use to sign their pieces with, and they DO work fine in silver or golds. (im sure thet would also work well in paper too)

order you some drill rod and give it a try. if you run into any issues or questions with making them feel free to post your findings/questions here where there are many who can give great advice and help. or PM me and ill do what I can.


would still recommend practicing cutting come of these on some scraps of brass or copper with a graver too. that skill can be used in so many other ways as a jeweler too. engraving other projects, restoration of older engraved rings, cleaning up hard to reach areas, stone setting.... gravers are quite the handy tool.

but careful hand engraving can be habit forming. *grins

 

[muknidav]

http://www.gravograph.us/engraving-machines/M20-Jewel.php

Gravograph sells a machine that will accept the computor graphics, and engrave them on the outside of the ring just as you want them. It isn't cheap, but if you are planning a large number, will certainly make it possible.You will still have to acquire the rings, they may be orderable from Rio Grande or a local jewelry manufacturing trade shop can make them. LA abounds in such places...in fact, there are, I'm sure, such places in LA that have the machine already, and could make them all for you.

If you want to do them yourself, and don't yet have ANY of the knowledge/ability, you are in for either a very long or a very steep learning curve. Either way, you will be spending a sizable amount of money. It looks like a fun project for the right shop, but is not going to be cheap. Good Luck.

Dear diandwill,

Thanks for your reply. Actually i can spend an amount like $1500. I have check that product already but it seems it can only engrave regular rings (not irregular shaped rings like i have attached on the first post). And i did not see the price for this machine. Do you have any knowledge about the average cost of this machine.

 

[muknidav]

your questions tell me what you don't know. there's no cheap, easy, fast way to do this. you may end up wasting a lot of time, and perhaps even money. i'm curious as to why you wish to do this. i know i'm being a bit nosey, perhaps even rude-- but just curious.

It is my new hobby I want to learn this job and want to engrave and shape this hard metal. That is all i want monk After i learn may be i can earn money. But todays purpose is just for fun an hobby.

 

[oiseau metal arts]

also to comment on the casting option.... casting is capable of producing MUCH finer details than the ring you posted a photo of. lots of fun to do, but does take a little more than $1500 to get set up unless you can find a local jeweler going out of business or just clearing out some equipment. then you can find some great deals. I managed to find one here 4 years ago and got the whole shop for $1400.

 

[Roger B]

If you want to cast (and yes silver will fill the details in this ring) start with wax carving and source a company that can do the casting for you. There are too many variables that can make a success or failure of the job. I'm not saying that beginners cannot be successful but if you have too many failures in casting someone may be easily put off continuing. If you plan to make a number of the same design the procedure would be to first make a master (this can be done directly in metal which would mean you will have to engrave the symbols - or make a model in wax and carve the symbols, then have it cast in metal), have a rubber mould made from this master which can be used to make the duplicate wax rings which would then be invested and cast in silver.

As you can see the skills that I mentioned in my previous post can include but not be restricted to wax carving, investing and burnout, vulcanizing the rubber mould and cutting it in a way to minimize mould lines, injecting the mould to create wax copies, treeing up the new waxes and finally cleaning up the silver rings. Bear in mind that shrinkage will occur through various stages so the finished rings will not be the same dimensions as the master. If you plan to set up your workshop as you plan to continue some of the equipment and consumables you will need will be a burnout oven, a vulcanizer, rubber sheets, investment, wax injector perhaps a vacuum chamber and a means to melt the silver and cast. When taken as a whole this is why I suggest the beginner start out small and just start with the carved wax and have someone else have the problem of casting.

Looks like you might have another couple of months researching to decide the best way to go - have fun,

Roger

 

[Haraga.com]

Good advice Roger.

 

[Marrinan]

Casting will capture the hair on a fly/s legs with all the detail. Vacuum or centrifugal casting are both available and will do fine jobs. I would suggest that you contact Rio Grand or one of the other jewelry supply houses and get their was model catalog's to get an Idea of what is available-check Rio Grand's on line catalog for both tools and materials also display and packaging. If you feel you can carve unique designs for your rings it will be worth you first expenditure to acquire books and videos on both the carving and casting process. The internet will not do. you will refer to these learning tools often. I would start with the "Complete Metalsmith" You will get an overview and some very useful starting points. And a few very good tips and tricks. Most book sellers on line carry it. I forget the author right of the top of my head.
Another option is job the project out to someone already set up for the processing and focus on design and sales. Just my two cents worth. Fred

Just a discouraging note on the silver jewelry trade. There are hundreds of custom, some brilliant manufacturing jewelers working on the back porch or ben of a corner of the dinning room trying to earn a living as custom jewelers. People who have gone to school and studied hard and do beautiful work, many starving for work. In this economy jewelry stores are closing the doors all over the country. When you do come up with the next Mode Ring, some foreign manufacture will copy iit and your out the door. Sorry-FM

 

[monk]

It is my new hobby I want to learn this job and want to engrave and shape this hard metal. That is all i want monk After i learn may be i can earn money. But todays purpose is just for fun an hobby.

ok, thanks. as a hobby, this art can be a lot of fun. it is also quite enjoyable when you begin to earn money with your work. i wish you the best in your quest to learn the art.

 

[muknidav]

im sorry but you might have misread something somewhere. that one was made from hardened O1 steel, and has been used in silver, brass, 416 stainless, other blade steels (before heat treating), and even leather.
ive been making these for other jewelers to use to sign their pieces with, and they DO work fine in silver or golds. (im sure thet would also work well in paper too)

order you some drill rod and give it a try. if you run into any issues or questions with making them feel free to post your findings/questions here where there are many who can give great advice and help. or PM me and ill do what I can.


would still recommend practicing cutting come of these on some scraps of brass or copper with a graver too. that skill can be used in so many other ways as a jeweler too. engraving other projects, restoration of older engraved rings, cleaning up hard to reach areas, stone setting.... gravers are quite the handy tool.

but careful hand engraving can be habit forming. *grins

Ooh i am sorry. It seems i have misunderstood. If the stamp will work on gold, it means that it is absolutely durable. Actually i have som drills but they are a bit big. I will give a try on a larger scale stamp.