Help, please: Beginning the Hand Engravers Bench Reference

[Brian Marshall]

As with most things in life - those who participate will gain the most benefit... those who don’t ... not so much.

Those who DO participate will be noticed, those who don’t well... their absence will also be noted.

You can either post answers here on the forum for a while - until this gets rolling, at which time it will probably be better to just send them to me directly to sort out and average?

As I've said before, if you would rather not post publicly for whatever reason - that's fine! Just participate by sending me the information privately and no one will ever know...

I intend to list and give credit to anyone who helps out, but if you prefer privacy - it's guaranteed.


General:

Type of engraving you do? Largest percentage first. For example if you are primarily a gun engraver and take on other jobs you might say: Guns 90%, knives 7%, odd jewelry jobs 3%...

Professional, part time, newbie or hobbyist?

Years of experience?

Hand pushed, hammer & chisel, power assisted or combination? Or combinations like power assisted and bulino?

Any “formal” education? Classes, workshops, apprenticeships, mentors?

How many classes, workshops or private instruction do you attend yearly? Total to date?

What percentage of your education & skills originate from books, DVD’s, website videos, FEGA publications, youtube?


Take in information:

Where do your customer contacts come from? Previous personal interaction, referrals, shows, events, exhibitions, Internet website? “social” media”? Other? For example – cold calls... Percentage of clients gained from each?

When you take a job in - do you have a standard written job form w/description, string tags, job envelopes, notebook/records, calendar, time log, or computer stored documentation to organize and track your jobs?

Do you have a written/signed contract with or without detailed description?

Do you take images of the piece before & after?

Drawings done, not done – extra charge or included in total price estimate?

Deposit & percentage thereof?

Average turnaround time for an average job in your shop? (If there is such a thing?)

Do you provide any form of provenance for future use - apart from a signature or hallmark type stamp?


Brian
instructor@jewelryartschool.com

 

[Riflesmith]

I'll have to work on this in the evenings but I will participate.
Thanks Brian!

 

[monk]

i will participate. do you provide a sort of form or format ? or do i just participate in a way thats convenient for me. the dynamics of my engraving pursuits have changed drastically since i began. i will attempt to demonstrate those changes from my beginning, till the present.

 

[Brian Marshall]

What I just put up were some thoughts from the notes I'm starting to make.

I'm putting together a set of forms in stages. As I get 'em completed I'll post 'em.

Right now - your suggestions are the important part. What exactly do you need for day to day use?

I'm thinking about printing loose leaf or binder that can be used at the take-in counter or at your bench to show the client that there are somewhat standardized prices for the simple jobs. Like lettering, borders, ring shanks & such.


If given a another coupla decades we can try to add a few more complicated calculations for situations you may encounter.


I haven't even gotten started on the categories and average prices charged across the USA.

Locations in other countries will have the average time it should take and can figure from there in their economy, currency, and the demand that drives it all.

All suggestions for standard parts and pieces to be engraved will be gratefully accepted. No one engraver on here has ever engraved it all.

Common items include Western silver, motorcycles, car parts, jewelry of all kinds, musical instruments, guns, knives, and on, and on and on.

Some things will not make it to the list just because they are just not common enough.


Brian

 

[Sandy]

As something to use as a referance on page 324 in the Brownells catalog is shop price survey. This is for standard gunsmithing jobs. It is a price range guide, and they have two pricings, as an example:
SERVICE CHARGES. Price Range
Per man hour.............................$40.00 $80.00
Per man & machine hour..............$50.00 $90.00
MINIMUM CHARGE PER GUN.........$35.00 $70.00
Written appraisals, cost estimates..$30.00 $50.00
The lead paragraph says, "...They are presented as a 'price range' guide to assist the gunsmith. Due to many factors ~including, but not limited to, gunsmith skill level, local economic conditions, type and value of firearm being worked on, quality and quantity of work requested by the customer~ Prices charged by your shop may vary from those shown,"
If I remember correctly in years past the price range was labeled low and high.
As I said this is brought up for referance and as sn idea stimulus.
Sandy

 

[Brian Marshall]

So far, and we are VERY early into this... what I am receiving is quite similar.

$30 minimum charge and a range of $40 to $80 per hour.


Nothing on appraisals yet. That was a sticky one for jewelers if it was for insurance purposes - and you can see why.

There aren't many standards for hanging up a shingle saying you are a qualified appraiser in most states yet. (excepting maybe real estate?)

There are at least 2 institutions for getting "certified and accredited" to appraise high value items - but they don't really delve into firearms or knives much.

Most depend on the billing documents or "fair market" to figure out a ballpark replacement value.


Brian

 

[diandwill]

I am almost all jewelry. I do a knife every year or two, but it's for the retail case. Engraved jewelry is about 35% of my stock.

I charge $40-50/hour depending on what it is...for artistic type work. I quote $10/letter as a start, but can go up or down depending on the item and the number of letters.

I don't do appraisals on engravings, other than a point of sale for my own work. I am a GIA G.G. and have been doing jewelry appraisals for 28 years, have testified in court cases and have gotten Costco to change their wording to allow GIA G.G.'s to be used by their customers.

If push comes to shove, I will provide a sketch before hand, especially if I feel the client is firm because they have seen my work and want a special piece done.

I have a retail store and, when I advertise, always include hand engraving as a point. Many local stores refer people to me, or come in to have me engrave for them. I charge 60-70% for wholesale.

I have a retail store, but we also do shows. With a niche in Celtic Jewelry, including Celtic themed engraving, we do a lot of Highland Games and Ren Faires. We do local Arts and Craft shows as a cheaper form of advertising. I can pass out 100-300 business cards for a $150 booth fee. Last year we did 15 shows, mostly March to November.

We use standard jewelry take in procedures. A 3 part invoice of which they get a copy showing we have their property, the second copy when they pay and one copy for our files. At shows, or for sales out of inventory, we have a 2 part invoice, one for them and 1 for us. Custom engraving is listed on the invoice, and usually has a sketch sheet that I have done to show my intentions. That is stapled to the invoice, with any pertinant notes there-on, and kept until the project is finished and then stapled to our copy for record keeping.

I try to take pics of everything I do, but sometimes when on a deadline, it just doesn't happen. Also many of my regular stock pieces, not engraved, are just listed but not pictured.

http://bockemuehljewelers.com/

 

[Brian Marshall]

Thanks Will.

I'd forgotten the difference between retail & wholesale.

Pretty shortsighted since that's exactly what I do myself! Sometimes you can't see what's right in front of you.


Brian

 

[diandwill]

Many believe that wholesale should be half, or less, of retail, but I am a retail store. I do work for other stores more as a favor than anything else.

I forgot about timetable. On jewelry repairs, I usually give myself 2 weeks and try to get it done quicker. Most engraving fits into a 2-3 week window, but some is just longer.

I have custom jewelry designs/pieces that are 4-6 months.

I had a mild stroke 3 years ago, and I refuse to be pressured into being quicker, by anyone other than myself, although I do pay attention to my wife. If my timetable isn't quick enough, a client is welcome to try to find another source, and, in fact, I often refer to others.

I don't do firearms so refer all of them away. Not generally to any one individual, but suggest they look here, in the cafe, and find someone whose work they like, or whose proximity works, and negotiate with them. Even slides that don't have a serial number are turned away. The only firearms I engrave are black powder, and those reluctantly. I would love to be able to get into that, but don't have an FFL and don't want to jump the hoops. At 68 I am too old to spend 4-5 years working towards another market.

 

[monk]

i began in the arts as an oil painter. evolved later into wood, stone, and metal sculpture. needed more excitement in my life. i began painting signs, carving wood signs, and cut vinyl signs. i incorporated glass etching and gllue chipping into my sign work. to avoid starvation, i began engraving strictly for "somethin to do". engraved rings for a gent that made rings at a flea market.

i floundered in this endeavor for quite some time. i was able, on a good day, to engrave enough rings to pay for a six pack or two. things got even worse, i got a copy of the james b. meeks book. my practice plates became my cash cow-- belt buckles. the gravermeister came into the picture due to the buckle revenue. for a long time, thanks to the gravermeister, i had no social life.

at this point i did only blackpowder guns. then modern guns, and a host of custom knives. i ended up with a pantograph, a cnc engraving machine, and a laser engraver. the panto served as a quick layout tool, as most of the tracings were then hand engraved. the cnc was strictly for commercial stuff. the laser was a cash generator, as well as a fun toy to just play with.

at this time, i engrave only blackpowder front stuffers., no more modern guns, custom knives or items of high value. i no longer trust myself to do work on anything of real value. the physical defecits that have visited me in the past several years have caused me to switch to far less chalenging work.
i don't consider the blackpowder work to be nearly as chalenging, and am able to do that with confidence and no reservation.

i make pendants, bracelets, belt buckles, name badges, dog tags and a host of other things. i can easily handle an order for 300 name badges, industrial tags, and such ,as most of this work is automated. all i have to do is feed the monkey. as for drawing, i cheat. when i need to draw, i usually do way oversized on paper. when it looks right, i scan, resize in corel, and do a transfer. i do very little direct drawing on parts anymore. enough baloney !

my pricing is as follows
blackpowder gun parts i average $200-300 bucks or so. depending on what a person has in mind. i'm able to do this work relatively quickly.
engraved pendants-copper, brass, ti, german silver-- an average 20 to 50 bucks. more if silver.
enamelled copper pendants- average maybe 30 -40 bucks a pop.
belt buckles usually 50 to a hundred bucks.
i've done some crazy stuff, toilet seat covers, harley fenders, asst bike parts, pick gaurds, a few trumpets. tira once inspired me to do a monkey wrench! no set fee for any of this stuff, it probably averaged out to maybe 30 or so bucks an hour.
when the authorities come, i'll deny ever having posted this !

 

[Brian Marshall]

Thanks Monk, the prices and articles engraved are useful - but the average time to do that is what's gonna make the difference...

Can you add in a timeline please? For example, what engraving are you doing on the belt buckles and how long does it take?

Are you just charging for the hand engraving, or is the buckle itself part of the price you come up with? If so, what is the charge for the engraving alone?


Brian

 

[sam]

Right now - your suggestions are the important part. What exactly do you need for day to day use?

I think I can speak for most of my students by saying many are in desperate need of a pricing guide. They have NO idea whether to charge $25 or $250. I get questioned about this all the time, and even last night by a former student who has a run of rings to engrave.

Same with gun/knife engraving. An engraver recently asked me what he should be charging for a knife engraving job he did. These are very difficult questions to answer because there are so many variables, so I predict your guide will be very popular.

Watch engraving is hot so consider adding that.

I would also suggest making it available only in print and not PDF or it'll be copied and shared like crazy.

 

[Brian Marshall]

That's exactly what I've seen... all that is needed is some basic idea of where to start!


The time it should take on say a roughly 1"x1" knife bolster with simple scrollwork for example? How much more should be added for removing the background?

How long should it take to layout and cut a wheat leaf pattern on a watch bezel?

How long should it take to hand cut a rope edge on a 3"x4" sterling buckle?

How long should it take to cut 3 5mm letters in script. In block?


Then you can add in fancier more complicated scrolls or letters, the variables for where you are in your level of skill - and where you might be located on the planet to get your price.


In no way can something like this cover "art" engraving! Art engraving is not done by the hour anyway.

Just a starting point/guide of what kind of time the "average" basic jobs should take. Something for beginners and those who are struggling to actually make a little (more) money for their time.


A skilled engraver should be easily able to beat the "average" time and this is NOT going to be a "rule book"!

What you charge can remain what YOU will charge - but knowing what is reasonable and being able to show that in print to a somewhat reluctant customer will help keep you out of the poorhouse.

It will be a general guide for common bread & butter jobs. Nothing more and nothing less...


Brian

 

[Brian Marshall]

I am debating whether or not to illustrate items, with small images - so that the level of complexity is fixed for the time frame it should take?

One engravers idea of an "average" simple scroll or letter may be light years off of what Sam or or Phil would/could do...


What do y'all say?


B.

 

[sam]

The time it should take on say a roughly 1"x1" knife bolster with simple scrollwork for example? 2 hrs

How much more should be added for removing the background? Additional 2 hrs

How long should it take to layout and cut a wheat leaf pattern on a watch bezel? 1- 2 hrs

How long should it take to hand cut a rope edge on a 3"x4" sterling buckle? 30-min to 1 hr

How long should it take to cut 3 5mm letters in script? 10 minutes

In block? 20 minutes, Roman w/serifs

These are guesstimates.

 

[suf]

Hi! As a newbie-gone-professional a reference like this would be very useful for me.

I work mostly wholesale for the jewellery trade. The current objective is to bring in $50/hour (today that’s about $37 USD). I try to set my pricing for how long I think the job should take me though it always takes a lot longer.

I’ve taken 2 professional classes, in 2014 & 2015, and hope to take another this year. I started accepting client work mid 2015. Most of my business is from referrals, some from social media.

I’ll be happy to fill out any forms/questionnaires if that might help with this project.

Thank-you,

Su

PS- Recently I purchased the Lee Griffiths book as a PDF from Engraver.com, I showed it to a friend who promptly bought his own copy + more items, so it must go both ways. Shipping and customs can be a deal breaker- In case you are making a pro-con list

 

[John B.]

Brian,
Simple illustrations in the book would be a great help.
And an overall minimum price for any job, figuring log-in time, pick up time, insurance on clients merchandise,security etc.
For instance, checking the clients correct ID and logging and out of a firearm in the FFL bound book.
The smallest job that requires a whole firearm to be left with me for engraving is $350.00.
If they bring gun screws, a revolver side plate for initials or other non serial number parts etc. I can quote by the piece price.

 

[Brian Marshall]

What do you say to breaking these times down and separating them specifically to layout and then actual engraving? Too complicated?

Would it be better to give a time frame from picking up the pencil/scribe to laying down the graver and taking the job out of the vise?


B.

 

[Brian Marshall]

John,


I was planning to begin with take in, as well as "figuring log-in time, pick up time, insurance on clients merchandise,security etc." in the very beginning of the book.

That's gonna be an individual computation that will affect the total on per hour type jobs. Gun engravers have a different take in procedure than jewelers for example. Some things remain the same, but paperwork/documentation are definitely different.

I would bet that most engravers are taking the chance - and flying without insurance. Some do not have much in the way of security... some will have over the top security.

We'll also explain how to put together an idea of what all of this "overhead" should add to the price charged.

Most are not thinking about what it would cost if they were not working out of a spare room or a garage shop. Part timers and hobbyists have a different view as well.


Brian

 

[Jan Hendrik]

It may be a good idea to draw up a basic average bolster design in a 1 inch by 1 inch square and ask the engravers to give their input on time they would need to do the engraving job on a design of that difficulty level. Also keeping in mind that cutting stainless steel would take longer than mild steel for instance (more issues with graver point breakages etc). Also the time it would take for background removal and proper shading on the job.
I wish I could charge $40 an hour for my work here in South Africa! In reality I get around $12-$19/ hour for labour here.