complaining- price wow

[dlilazteca]

Every time I try to go down the rabbit hole that is steel alloys I end up regretting it, so maybe one of you can help me figure this out.

Is there any reason why 3/32" square keystock would be inappropriate for use as graver blanks? For example, this Fastenal product (1095) is $2.13 for 12 inches (wholesale, call it $5 retail), or if you want to go less brittle, they have a 1018 version available as well.

It seems to me that that math works out to 6 square blanks for $5.

3/32 square is just fine, for a Graver actually anything that will cut the material you're working on will work so now the only thing is to buy some and try it out

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[Archie Woodworth]

The link to the YouTube video is the method that I use when sharpening / resharpening round engravers. It eliminates the necessity of soldering on square brass tube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63MoZD0lGtA

 

[Dave London]

Archie
No joy on that link

 

[Brian Marshall]

Works fine for me Dave...

B.

 

[Archie Woodworth]

Dave,
I was messing around with the length .... probably still uploading when you tried...sorry. Should be "Good to Go" now.

 

[Dave London]

Thanks got it now

 

[takedeadaim]

Every time I try to go down the rabbit hole that is steel alloys I end up regretting it, so maybe one of you can help me figure this out.

Is there any reason why 3/32" square keystock would be inappropriate for use as graver blanks? For example, this Fastenal product (1095) is $2.13 for 12 inches (wholesale, call it $5 retail), or if you want to go less brittle, they have a 1018 version available as well.

It seems to me that that math works out to 6 square blanks for $5.

Its very simple your graver needs to be harder than the material your cutting. This was discovered thousands of years ago when man began making cutting tools from various types of stone, IE; flin, obsidian etc. Key stock is non carbon, non harden-able steel. The blanks being discussed and used in modern engraving are made from High Speed Steel, (HHS) similar to knife steel, drill rod and other high carbon steels used in Drill bits, lathe tools, reamers etc. Just as you can't drill a hole in 1018 steel with a piece of 1018 round stock that is "sharpened" you can not engrave steel with key stock.

 

[takedeadaim]

Glen steel blanks $14.00 each!!
That's about $100.00 for 6 of them. Getting kind of rough isn't it?? Where else can we go? This is getting ridiculous.

I checked the national monopoly holder on lathe tooling, (MSC) and 1/8" HSS bits range from about $5 each to a little over $10 each for M42. 3/32" square tooling is just not made any longer. So to buy in bulk, (an investment of capitol) and then have them ground to 3/32" and re-marked (another capitol investment) is what has driven the cost up. Do I think $14 is too high, yep! But that whole supply and demand thing comes into play. I use the Lindsay blanks at $30 for five or $6 each, I think the M42 from him are $50 for five.

The option is to buy a quantity of blanks and have them ground. My guess is the buy in quantity would be high enough that it would require a group effort to make it financially sound for people to do.

 

[Scottyd]

Take a look at William T Hutchinson. They're a good source of HSS M42 and carbide blanks. I have used their 1/16 blanks to make a bunch of John B's gravers using brass tubing. Unfortunately they don't have 3/32 blanks but two years ago they said they would be happy to special order any size you want at a price. If I remember correctly the price wasn't excessive but it was a larger quantity than I would use in my short remaining lifetime. There are several other companies that have been mentioned on the forum that also supply blanks. This has been the subject of several threads on the forum.
Scott

 

[diandwill]

How much per hour do you make engraving? If you charge $40/hour and it takes 1/2 hour to heat treat a piece of stock to save $5, you are spending $20 to save $5. If you aren't charging, maybe spending the time engraving instead of re-inventing the wheel, would move you to where you can charge.

I buy mostly the C-Max, and a few HSS gravers every 2-3 years, and engrave 15-30 hours per week. It makes sense to me to just buy them. They work great and the people at GRS and Steve Lindsay know what they are doing.

 

[allan621]

Great answer and one of the most sensible. Sometimes its the prudent man who spends the most.

 

[sparklemotion]

How much per hour do you make engraving? If you charge $40/hour and it takes 1/2 hour to heat treat a piece of stock to save $5, you are spending $20 to save $5. If you aren't charging, maybe spending the time engraving instead of re-inventing the wheel, would move you to where you can charge.

I buy mostly the C-Max, and a few HSS gravers every 2-3 years, and engrave 15-30 hours per week. It makes sense to me to just buy them. They work great and the people at GRS and Steve Lindsay know what they are doing.

On the one hand, it's easy to be penny-wise and pound foolish in search of a good deal. On the other, I think there is something to be said for fully understanding what one is paying for.

For example, as someone who works mainly in non-ferrous metals, this thread has helped me realize that HSS or carbide alloys are probably overkill for my work. Similarly, 1018 seems like it might be too soft, but 1095, and the other hardenable tool steels seem like they'll work out.

I'm also reasonably sure that I'm not the only hobbyist perusing these forums, and I understand that my time calculus may be different for than it is for the pros. Plus since stock can be heat-treated in batches, so that 1/2 hour might make 10 blanks -- a $50 savings, if you know what you're doing.

 

[dogcatcher]

I'm also reasonably sure that I'm not the only hobbyist perusing these forums, and I understand that my time calculus may be different for than it is for the pros. Plus since stock can be heat-treated in batches, so that 1/2 hour might make 10 blanks -- a $50 savings, if you know what you're doing.

I am also a hobbyist, I don't and cannot pass on high prices to a customer, what I spend is my money for my own personal enjoyment. I converted most of my stuff to 1/8" round and square tooling bits. Some of the other stuff I converted to hold masonry nails. A 1 pound box of Maze concrete nails cost me less than $5 or about a dime a piece. For my playing around they work the same as the more expensive tooling bits from MSC. I also used the same nails to make woodcarving chisels.

 

[BrianPowley]

Money is simply a medium of exchange for value received and if you couple that with your belief system, you'll determine the personal "worth" of something.
Money always goes where it's treated best.
Thank God there are so many choices today.
Although I admit it makes me chuckle to see some work so hard to save so little, I applaud those that "tinker" to build that better mousetrap too.

 

[jerrywh]

It's also not smart if you don't shop around. Hear is another angle. I have some students. When you tell a new guy that little piece of steel is $15 or $16 dollars, you usually get a funny look out of them. I use a lot of Cmax myself. I love it and don't mind paying for it at all.

 

[Flashmo]

Money is simply a medium of exchange for value received and if you couple that with your belief system, you'll determine the personal "worth" of something.
Money always goes where it's treated best.
Thank God there are so many choices today.
Although I admit it makes me chuckle to see some work so hard to save so little, I applaud those that "tinker" to build that better mousetrap too.

No disrespect intended, but if you do the math, you are the one stepping over dollars to pick up dimes. I understand exactly where you are coming from, and in a lot of cases the status quo can be cost effective for the situation.

Here is the math on my John B Gravers.
1. You order 10 Glensteel gravers for $150, they come in, you sharpen them as needed and get back to work with a $50 per hour rate (just using a number out of thin air).

2. I order 10 pieces of 3/32" M42 drill rod and one piece of 1/8" brass square stock for about $50. When they come in, I spend a total of 15 minutes with a pair of dykes and a tube of superglue to finish out making the gravers. Sharpen them as needed, and get back to work charging $50 an hour. I just saved $100 for 15 minutes work...that is a $400 an hour rate.
3. Roughing a 3/32" round graver is faster than a 3/32" square graver because there is less material to remove (no corners) so I save time on initial roughing, and touch ups as well.

As long as your business economics work for you, then you are doing it right.

 

[dlilazteca]

No disrespect intended, but if you do the math, you are the one stepping over dollars to pick up dimes. I understand exactly where you are coming from, and in a lot of cases the status quo can be cost effective for the situation.

Here is the math on my John B Gravers.
1. You order 10 Glensteel gravers for $150, they come in, you sharpen them as needed and get back to work with a $50 per hour rate (just using a number out of thin air).

2. I order 10 pieces of 3/32" M42 drill rod and one piece of 1/8" brass square stock for about $50. When they come in, I spend a total of 15 minutes with a pair of dykes and a tube of superglue to finish out making the gravers. Sharpen them as needed, and get back to work charging $50 an hour. I just saved $100 for 15 minutes work...that is a $400 an hour rate.
3. Roughing a 3/32" round graver is faster than a 3/32" square graver because there is less material to remove (no corners) so I save time on initial roughing, and touch ups as well.

As long as your business economics work for you, then you are doing it right.

And roughing out one of Jonh B. 1/16 gravers is even faster!

What you guys need to do is use the search button as this topic has been covered many times.

3/32 square vs 1/16 round = lots and lots of money counting shop time.

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[jerrywh]

I know this is nit picking. As posted the math works out great but in reality it must fit the situation. Everybody's not booked at $50.00 an hour or any rate. Some engravers do what they want when ever they want. They are not bound by any customers demands or strict time lines. John B is probably one of that type as well as others.

 

[John B.]

John B. here.
Thank you all for the support and using of my little gravers. They are a good little DIY project and I hope you enjoy making a few.
But please remember we are very lucky to have the fine suppliers of standard gravers in a variety of different metals and sizes.
They also make the fixtures to sharpen and provide the shaping and sharpening instructions. A great help to beginners.
Gravers are a very low volume tool in the scheme of things and most of their cost is in the specialized grinding, set up and tooling.
I enjoy making and saving both sharpening time and cost on a few of my little gravers.
But I am very happy to pay the going price for the standard gravers that I also use.
One $15.00 graver will produce more than a thousand dollars of work. Not a bad investment if you have paying work to do.
Just my rambling.

 

[MoldyJim]

One point missing in the discussion, is the number of different point styles to experiment with before settling on a few favorites.
If I have $150 worth of $15 points five at 105 degrees. Another five at various angles and shapes I can work out a lot of different options
But if they only cost $5 that is 30 different options.
I like to try different things, angles and keep some for hard metal, some for silver etc.