English fine scroll -- layout on paper

[AO84]

Trying to learn it. Can't get ahold of Marcus Hunt's book so going from what I've seen here and youtube.

Question: what do you like to do when drawing it out to prep a transfer. Do you just draw the scroll backbones throughout? Do you draw backbone plus initial lines for each inner leave? Or do you draw finished designs and then transfer?

I'm finding that it is very difficult to draw this small without making everything muddy. When I add in the 2nd and 3rd leaf cuts, things get too bold... thanks all

 

[John B.]

AO84, Try drawing scroll backbone lines, main leaf lines and exterior work at twice the size you plan to cut them. Leave out the wide flair cuts and shading.
Then reduce it 50% when you print it for transfer and practice cutting.

 

[AO84]

John, that is an excellent tip. Thank you very much.

 

[John B.]

Thank you AO84.
When you make a copy of the space you are designing English scroll for, first make a paper copy at actual size.
Use this to just make a quick, rough layout of backbones only, open space "pathways" between clusters and bouquets.
This will help you from overcrowding your design when you draw it at 200% size and then shrink it back for transfer and practice cutting.

 

[John B.]

Remember that outside work will add size to your scroll backbones and also define your open space and "pathways" between clusters and bouquets.

 

[AO84]

John thank you again for taking the time to give these suggestions. This is incredibly helpful as I think through how best to learn this

 

[highveldt]

AO84;

It is likely going to be very hard to be able to acquire one of Marcus Hunts book's, the 2 videos and the 5 plastic resin castings of examples of his execution of Fine English Scroll (fine=small). I received my set of the above on 9Aug3013 and they will be passed on to my grandson. Hopefully Marcus will offer another set soon.

However, I believe I can provide you with some helpful information from Marcus' book/video without violating copyrights. The information below are some points that he stresses:

English Fine Scrolls are on the average only 3-5 mm in length in size with a size of about 7mm being the largest than can be considered fine scroll.

Above all English Fine Scrolls grow naturally, not growing in the wrong direction, or a larger scroll growing from a smaller scroll---a scroll growing from another scroll grows from it in a gradual natural form as in nature, and a scroll does not grow from another at a near straight angle.

Marcus recommends that one use a 90 degree to 105 degree graver to "ring" the scrolls, and using another size such as a 115 degree (his favorite size graver) is used to make the single and double cuts which make up the leaves and tendrils of the the inside work of the scroll being engraved.

Marcus explains that for the single and double cuts of the inside work of engraving Fine English Scroll to have a pleasing teardrop shape, these cuts/chips must be "popped" out at the end of the cut--he says that an audible pop can be heard when he is popping his cuts. Most importantly he explains that in order to have a graver that will be able to pop out a chip, it must be ground to a taper (not unlike the taper of a pencil sharpened in a pencil sharpener) so that the graver can "spring" to pop out the chip. Further a graver that is gradually tapered to .75 to 1.00 mm wide with a steep face of 50 degrees to 55 degrees for strength in popping out chips is advised.

This information above should help you.

Please note that I spend a significant amount of time on tapering my Carbalt gravers that I get from Steve Lindsay to be able to pop out a chip, and that I believe this is a very very important task. I use very coarse (100 grit ) 6 inch diameter diamond disc to start the taper and progress to less coarse to fine to finish out the tapered graver. The length of the taper is from .750 inch to 1.0 inch and I use one of Lindsay's round graver templates to grind the taper. Over the last few years I have begun to like the taper gravers so well that I do most of my work with a tapered graver no matter what the work is. Please be aware of the damaging dust that is created when you are grinding tapers for such a long period of time and wear a dust mask.

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell

 

[AO84]

Stephen thank you very much for the detailed information. Very helpful.

 

[AO84]

Here's something I drew at double size, which I will reduce by 50%... just to practice. I don't love the design, but figured it might look better once cut. The thought was to fill a corner of a square plate...i know there still needs to be outside work for the bottom of the triangle, which I'll add later but doesnt appear on the transfer sketch.. any advice or criticism is welcomed.

 

[T.G.III]

Cannot see the picture.

 

[AO84]

Oh. I have it as a .pdf. will try to convert soon thanks

 

[ClarkAndAddison]

I can see it! That's a great start and nice design. Everything looks "correct" as far as I can see . If you don't already be sure to follow and check out Ken Hunts instagram account. It's a serious plethora of engraving and ornamental design knowledge like no other. I've saved hundreds of posts over the years to study and he does a fair ammount on English fine scroll . Designing and layout, to how to make the correct cuts, he details the inside and outside work etc.
Good Luck! I'm learning as well and fine English scrollwork.
-@TomFree258
-Tom F.

 

[ClarkAndAddison]

If I'm doing something serious I'll design and transfer my backbones using an ink jet and pictorico transparency film with a damar solution. But for small English scroll designs I'll often use sams transfer wax or any wax and I'll draw and pencil in the backbones, then when I'm happy I lightly scribe the line and wipe off the wax and cut the backbones. Then I'll start cutting the inside, I'll use wax and pencil in the main cut or ring of the scrolls and when I'm happy cut that. I do all the outside work last. Here are just a few of Ken's posts in the past month or 2. And he has years posts, and they are all educational illustrations.There are far better examples he has posted you just have to scroll down further into his feed and I didn't have much time.

 

[ClarkAndAddison]

If I'm doing something serious I'll design and transfer my backbones using an ink jet and pictorico transparency film with a damar solution. But for small English scroll designs I'll often use sams transfer wax or any wax and I'll draw and pencil in the backbones, then when I'm happy I lightly scribe the line and wipe off the wax and cut the backbones. Then I'll start cutting the inside, I'll use wax and pencil in the main cut or ring of the scrolls and when I'm happy cut that. I do all the outside work last. Here are just a few of Ken's posts in the past month or 2. And he has years posts, and they are almost all educational illustrations like this. There are far better examples he has posted you just have to scroll down further into his feed and I didn't have much time.

 

[AO84]

Thanks for sharing those. Much appreciated

 

[JJ Roberts]

I would love to see Ken turn his beautiful drawing into a book. J.J.

 

[AO84]

Can anyone provide further information regarding the following observation: English fine scroll can be cut two different ways: 1) the third cut going upward parallel to the backbone as explained and demonstrated by Thierry Duguet, here:

-- for example or 2) how it is cut by Mr. Hunt where it doesn't seem to have a cut going parallel to the backbone, commencing on the start of the internal leaves, and terminating right before each subsequent leaf commences, if that makes sense.

Question: are these two styles both considered EFS? They convey a slightly different feel to the finished engraving... just curious if anyone has further thoughts on any of this. Thanks again

 

[AO84]

Is English scroll traditionally blackened at the end, or not? Thanks

 

[Crossbolt]

Is English scroll traditionally blackened at the end, or not? Thanks

If you mean inked or painted, no. The cuts sparkle in some angles of light and are black in others.
Jeremy