Stock682
Member
Did anyone ever find out which grade carbide "c-max" is? I am all for capitalism and profit, but GRS is, well....
Question: c-max carbide grade
- Thread starter Stock682
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mitch
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2007
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- 2,648
What are you trying to say? That GRS charges a lot for something that might be had cheaper from an industrial supplier, if only you could suss out the correct material?
Personally, I think their prices tend to be high (and shipping ridiculous), but you’re also paying for them having already figured out what makes the best gravers, sourcing it, and having it in stock. This sort of carbide is typically used in lathe bits and can be hard to find smaller than 1/8” sq.
Given that a carbide graver can last for a year, helping produce >$50k of billable work, I don’t lose any sleep over paying a few bucks more than absolutely necessary for a small tool, especially if I didn’t have to waste any extra time finding it.
My $0.02
Personally, I think their prices tend to be high (and shipping ridiculous), but you’re also paying for them having already figured out what makes the best gravers, sourcing it, and having it in stock. This sort of carbide is typically used in lathe bits and can be hard to find smaller than 1/8” sq.
Given that a carbide graver can last for a year, helping produce >$50k of billable work, I don’t lose any sleep over paying a few bucks more than absolutely necessary for a small tool, especially if I didn’t have to waste any extra time finding it.
My $0.02
Stock682
Member
Hi Mitch,
I agree to a certain point. If something is made in the USA or Europe (where I am based) the obviously there is a premium to be paid, which I am happy to do. On the other hand I think there is a bit of false advertising going on here. Carbide rods are produced in China, its just not cost affective for american companies to do it. There is no "secret mix" to C-max gravers, its just a matter of finding out which blend they are using. There are a bunch to go through and test, which I am in the process of doing. As a setter myself, I make a bunch of gravers in different shapes and sizes depending on my need, so I like to start from blanks. Granted I can use old carbide burs, but still, blanks can be more cost effective in the long run.
That being said, every company uses markups, and to be fair, what grs is charging is mostly for the shape of the graver. That is what I assume costs the most in production.
Getting off topic but another example is teflon sheets from GRS for thermolock. Check the prices on Aliexpress vs GRS. Its just plain robbery
I agree to a certain point. If something is made in the USA or Europe (where I am based) the obviously there is a premium to be paid, which I am happy to do. On the other hand I think there is a bit of false advertising going on here. Carbide rods are produced in China, its just not cost affective for american companies to do it. There is no "secret mix" to C-max gravers, its just a matter of finding out which blend they are using. There are a bunch to go through and test, which I am in the process of doing. As a setter myself, I make a bunch of gravers in different shapes and sizes depending on my need, so I like to start from blanks. Granted I can use old carbide burs, but still, blanks can be more cost effective in the long run.
That being said, every company uses markups, and to be fair, what grs is charging is mostly for the shape of the graver. That is what I assume costs the most in production.
Getting off topic but another example is teflon sheets from GRS for thermolock. Check the prices on Aliexpress vs GRS. Its just plain robbery
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one valuable feature offered by the grs people is great customer support. that combined with very good products gives me peace of mind. order from elcheapo.com you can forget customer service.
Stock682
Member
Fair enough. My engraver system was GRS before I switched to the Pulse Graver. My setting tools are all Jura (now by GRS), Micromotor (2) are both NSK.
I buy quality. Right now Im just complaining about the price of graver blanks...
rweigel
Elite Cafe Member
I wanted to try out carbide gravers at stainless steel last year without paying a fortune for the blanks. Instead of trying to find out the ingredients of C-Max or Carbalt, I went the other way round and asked german carbide manufacturers which grade they would recommand for “cutting metal with a tiny pneumatic hammer”. TRIBO Hartstoffe recommanded U12 (K10-K20), a ultra fine grain carbide with 12% binder. They sold me 2mm diam. rods, 330mm long, for less than 10 $ (€) per piece.
Each rod gives me 6 blanks. I grind them on 50mm diamond separating wheels and 50mm copper discs with diamond paste of different grains, down to 0.5um for polishing. At first it was like, That’s carbide? It chips even faster thane high speed steel! Some weeks later, I seemed to avoid the sudden direction or tilt (=lay) changes that broke the points. For me, this grade works well.
Good luck
Ralf
Each rod gives me 6 blanks. I grind them on 50mm diamond separating wheels and 50mm copper discs with diamond paste of different grains, down to 0.5um for polishing. At first it was like, That’s carbide? It chips even faster thane high speed steel! Some weeks later, I seemed to avoid the sudden direction or tilt (=lay) changes that broke the points. For me, this grade works well.
Good luck
Ralf
Chujybear
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
It would be more prone to chip. Carbide is harder not tougher.
Stock682
Member
C-max is carbide. We are just disuccing how much binder (cobalt) is inside the mix. 12% is on the higher side of binder. Might work
I’ll start by saying that I am a hobby engraving novice so I know virtually nothing!
My very limited understanding of carbide tools comes from experience with using carbide tooling in lathe and milling machine work. For interrupted cuts, carbide has a greater tendency to chip when compared to high speed steel. If interrupted cuts are avoided, carbide stays sharp and usable a whole lot longer.
Not all carbide is created equal and different grades and shapes are used for different applications. Cobalt is used to bind carbide grains together, and the percent of cobalt and the grain size of the carbide particles effects cutting properties. Higher cobalt content and smaller carbide grain size equals greater toughness (resistance to chipping) at the expense of lower hardness (roughly wear resistance).
Additional alloying elements are also sometimes added to even further complicate carbide grade selection, but that is way over my head.
My guess is that for gravers the big guys figured out which carbide grades have the best balance of hardness and toughness and then found quality manufacturers to supply blanks for retail sales.
For anyone wanting to do do some trial and error research, my guess would be to look for carbide with fine grain size and high cobalt content.
Very coincidentally, just before this thread was started I ordered some 1/8”x3” carbide listed as C2 grade, sub-micron grain size, with 10% cobalt. They may be a total bust, but at about $25 for five it won’t be a great loss if they are.
My very limited understanding of carbide tools comes from experience with using carbide tooling in lathe and milling machine work. For interrupted cuts, carbide has a greater tendency to chip when compared to high speed steel. If interrupted cuts are avoided, carbide stays sharp and usable a whole lot longer.
Not all carbide is created equal and different grades and shapes are used for different applications. Cobalt is used to bind carbide grains together, and the percent of cobalt and the grain size of the carbide particles effects cutting properties. Higher cobalt content and smaller carbide grain size equals greater toughness (resistance to chipping) at the expense of lower hardness (roughly wear resistance).
Additional alloying elements are also sometimes added to even further complicate carbide grade selection, but that is way over my head.
My guess is that for gravers the big guys figured out which carbide grades have the best balance of hardness and toughness and then found quality manufacturers to supply blanks for retail sales.
For anyone wanting to do do some trial and error research, my guess would be to look for carbide with fine grain size and high cobalt content.
Very coincidentally, just before this thread was started I ordered some 1/8”x3” carbide listed as C2 grade, sub-micron grain size, with 10% cobalt. They may be a total bust, but at about $25 for five it won’t be a great loss if they are.
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