Laser engraving patterns

[Escher]

Have any of you used a laser cutter or engraver to lightly transfer patterns onto metal for hand engraving? I have seen some commercially available products that seem to use this or a similar method. Now that these laser devices have come down in price, it seems like they may be a good option, particularly for flat work.

 

[monk]

i have done this a few times but do not like it. i prefer to draw large, scan, scale down, then print a transfer. the other way is to do direct draw layout. i have also done a couple gun slides with the laser. i do not like doing this technique on guns simply because in all the perfection, it lacks depth and is "lifeless" compared to hand cutting.
a warning to those thinking of buying a "low priced" laser. i bought mine about 20 or so years ago. it cost me 25 big ones. xpensive-- yes. but it still functions flawlessly. the cheap ones will likely not last long.

 

[Escher]

Thanks monk! Just to clarify, this would only be for layouts to be hand engraved, not the finished product.

 

[DaveAtWeirs]

I've tried it before with both laser and machine engraving and found that the lines they leave can be a hinderance. If you imagine you're on a bike, the lines act almost like tracks in a road, yes they're good for guidance but they can very slightly throw the graver out of a nice curve if you go off them even slightly, plus you have to actively cut out any reminants of the laser lines cus they make the hand cut lines look messy and, particularly at the end of lines, this can make you need to cut deeper than you may want for that bit and really messes with the lovely sharp tapers you cat with hand engraving. If you keep that in mind when doing up the design it should be ok but it's much easier to polish out lightly scribed lines than it is laser engraving. Give it a go though, I imagine it could be quite helpful for large layouts where paper transfers may not work easily.

 

[monk]

I've tried it before with both laser and machine engraving and found that the lines they leave can be a hinderance. If you imagine you're on a bike, the lines act almost like tracks in a road, yes they're good for guidance but they can very slightly throw the graver out of a nice curve if you go off them even slightly, plus you have to actively cut out any reminants of the laser lines cus they make the hand cut lines look messy and, particularly at the end of lines, this can make you need to cut deeper than you may want for that bit and really messes with the lovely sharp tapers you cat with hand engraving. If you keep that in mind when doing up the design it should be ok but it's much easier to polish out lightly scribed lines than it is laser engraving. Give it a go though, I imagine it could be quite helpful for large layouts where paper transfers may not work easily.

i think you may have a focus problem. if collimation is perfect the lines shouldn't be that wide. aligning the lenses and mirrors on my machine takes quite a bit of trial and error but the results are worth the effort. i never measured my lines but i think they're around .005" or so. also possible is yer speed/power settings. did you ever test different settings ?

 

[mrthe]

you can do it without problem in flat surface, i have a 3d laser that allow you to do it in curved surface too , and like monk say if correctky setted the line that you can draw is more small than an hair.

 

[monk]

you can do it without problem in flat surface, i have a 3d laser that allow you to do it in curved surface too , and like monk say if correctky setted the line that you can draw is more small than an hair.

mine will also do 3d but i seldom use the feature.

 

[papart1]

Mr. Mrthe...........what brand/s are we talking about please?

 

[DaveAtWeirs]

i think you may have a focus problem. if collimation is perfect the lines shouldn't be that wide. aligning the lenses and mirrors on my machine takes quite a bit of trial and error but the results are worth the effort. i never measured my lines but i think they're around .005" or so. also possible is yer speed/power settings. did you ever test different settings ?

That's interesting, I may need to look into it more. I had been thinking of getting one and got someone who already had a laser to do it and wasn't terribly impressed with the results but it wouldn't surprise me if they hadn't got it set up correctly. Might need to treat myself next time there's a sale on somewhere

 

[monk]

Mr. Mrthe...........what brand/s are we talking about please?

my laser is an epilog 30 watt. the table is 18 x 24 " it has a circular fixture that will accept all manner of curved objects. i could earn a small fortune doing wine glasses and such-- but no joy doing that kinda stuff.

 

[Goldjockey]

In my experience a good fiber laser is an excellent way to transfer designs especially if one is doing multiples of the same pattern, and needs both speed and a high degree of fidelity.

Also experimenting with output that has the look and feel of good hand engraving. Still working out some of the kinks and fine points, but so far the results are encouraging. One advantage I see is being able to reproduce multiples of a good design with a high degree of fidelity.

Attached are a couple of experimental pieces I did some time ago. Not the latest generation of work, but definitely a step in the right direction. Drawn in procreate and output on a LaserStar 50W fiber laser. The items were cut in sterling. Lighting is flat to eliminate as much glare as possible, but even with the obvious flaws I am working to eliminate in later iterations, I think they look pretty good.

 

[monk]

looks real to my eye. jockey: what advantage do you get with procreate that you dont get with pen and pencil? quote curious about that.

 

[Goldjockey]

looks real to my eye. jockey: what advantage do you get with procreate that you dont get with pen and pencil? quote curious about that.

Good evening, Monk.

For me Procreate offers a number of advantages. Layering, the ability to create strokes that accurately represent the taper and flow of engraving cuts, native high resolution output, and the ability to refine and edit the design iteratively to work optimally with the vector based software used to translate and format the drawing for laser output.

 

[allan621]

Goldjockey wrote :

For me Procreate offers a number of advantages. Layering, the ability to create strokes that accurately represent the taper and flow of engraving cuts, native high resolution output, and the ability to refine and edit the design iteratively to work optimally with the vector based software used to translate and format the drawing for laser output.

That's a great answer. But for those of us born in the middle of the last century do you have an english translation? :0) ( an emoticon also from the middle of the last century )

Allan

 

[Goldjockey]

Goldjockey wrote :

For me Procreate offers a number of advantages. Layering, the ability to create strokes that accurately represent the taper and flow of engraving cuts, native high resolution output, and the ability to refine and edit the design iteratively to work optimally with the vector based software used to translate and format the drawing for laser output.

That's a great answer. But for those of us born in the middle of the last century do you have an english translation? :0) ( an emoticon also from the middle of the last century )

Allan

Haha!

Ok. Layers function lets me export each layer as an individual PNG file. The brushes feature along with progressive pressure sensitive line width - using Sam’s engraving brushes - allows one to recreate the delicate progressive taper of engraving cuts. Beyond that since one is working with an editable digital file, if you identify something (or a bunch of things) that need tweaking to cut the way you want them to, you can create as many copies of the drawing as you need, and go back in and make the necessary changes.

Back when, I actually used to do layered pencil drawings of jewelry designs on sheets of vellum layered one over the other. Procreate lets me do that a lot more efficiently, and there are a ton of ways you can use one layer to edit another layer or even take a layer over to another drawing.

High resolution is important because the Procreate bitmapped layers are individually converted to vector tracings for output, and the better the resolution of the original bitmaps, the more accurately the vector tracing of the layer will cut.

You could accomplish all of that with pencil and paper, vellum, etc. and then scan the individual layers to high resolution bitmaps to trace into vectors, but that’s beating a mule out of a job.

Attached is a closeup of a laser layout used to cut a version of the buckle I posted earlier. Each color in the layout represents a different layer for cutting, outline, scrollwork. shading, background, etc., like hand engraving each is cut individually at varying depths. Material is removed in tiny, tiny fractions of a millimeter with each pass of the laser, and up to hundreds or even thousands of passes can be required to cut each layer depending on the material, field size, lens type, desired depth, etc. so while less time is required than creating the same item with hand engraving, the process of cutting a single high quality piece this way can take many, many hours.

 

[allan621]

Can't thank you enough for that explanation. Read it through a half dozen times before I realized what you were explaining. It was the explanation of how you used to lay one transparent piece of paper over another to create designs that opened it up for me. I understood the layer concepts when I was looking into graphic software. I assumed that the layering was just adding more detail to drawing, sort of like I do now and you did then. I use a light box and add multiple sheets on top of each other to make corrections or changes. Now I understand the layers are actually separate image files.

For my retirement I'm starting a new venture dealing with cut out letters to hang from pendants. So with layers I could change the original letter when I want by lifting a layer and installing a revision on top of the original image? That would be incredibly useful. I spend a lot of time now just drawing and redrawing the same image quite a few times to get it looking right.

I was looking on ebay for an ipad pro gen 5. Apple pencils are reasonably priced and the procreate is really inexpensive.

If I ever get back to Texas I'll stop by and buy you a chicken fried steak. I took a drive to San Antonio to spend a week away from she who must be obeyed, stopped in to visit friends and a customer, and the most vivid memory I came away with was for the chicken fried. Awesome.

Allan

 

[Goldjockey]

Can't thank you enough for that explanation. Read it through a half dozen times before I realized what you were explaining. It was the explanation of how you used to lay one transparent piece of paper over another to create designs that opened it up for me. I understood the layer concepts when I was looking into graphic software. I assumed that the layering was just adding more detail to drawing, sort of like I do now and you did then. I use a light box and add multiple sheets on top of each other to make corrections or changes. Now I understand the layers are actually separate image files.

For my retirement I'm starting a new venture dealing with cut out letters to hang from pendants. So with layers I could change the original letter when I want by lifting a layer and installing a revision on top of the original image? That would be incredibly useful. I spend a lot of time now just drawing and redrawing the same image quite a few times to get it looking right.

I was looking on ebay for an ipad pro gen 5. Apple pencils are reasonably priced and the procreate is really inexpensive.

If I ever get back to Texas I'll stop by and buy you a chicken fried steak. I took a drive to San Antonio to spend a week away from she who must be obeyed, stopped in to visit friends and a customer, and the most vivid memory I came away with was for the chicken fried. Awesome.

Allan

Hi Allan. I sort of got off in the weeds, but I’m glad the description helped.

Once one gets used to Procreate, it is very much like drawing with pencil and paper, or pen and paper, brush and paper, depending on what brush you choose to work with. The layering occurs within a single procreate file, and using the transparency function on one or more layers Procreate does allow you to work exactly as described, but more efficiently.

While all of the layers reside within the file you are working with, you can choose at any time to output the layers as separate files by simply choosing that option, and exporting the files to PNG, a versatile bitmap format.

I think you’ll love it when you get the hang of it, and there are many terrific tutorials available on YouTube to get you up to speed.

Happy to take you up on the chicken fried steak offer when you’re in town!