Quality of engraving on base of silver box?

[Guido.]

Hello Members.

I collect interesting small boxes,I have posted other boxes before.
Interested in comments on my latest box,I feel may be German.Only has Austrian import mark used 1902-1922.

I purchased it Because I thought the enamel plaque was interesting found after, ( original painting done by Swedish artist
Alexander Meurling 1765,gouache on parchment) in Swedish Museum.

Is the engraving ,classed as basic,or reasonable standard on base? Box size 7.5 x 5.0cm. 3"inch x 2"inches.

Regards Guido.

 

[mtlctr]

I would guess a standard production engraving. Engravers back then were like stone masons, cabinet makers, etc. skilled Craftsmen

 

[Guido.]

Hi Mtlctr
Thanks for your comments.
How long would it take to do this engraving,these days?
I always feel when boxes are worked on bases,such as this it makes them a bit more special and interesting.
(A small note,base slightly con caved,I feel to stop wear to engraving)
A smart idea.
Regards Guido.

 

[mtlctr]

Here is a box I made & engraved, red brass & nickel silver. Engraved h& c . Another in copper for “toot picks”.

 

[farmer57]

Guido, to my eye this has a feel of custom made piece or at least a combination of both - standard production and custom aspects. From the enameller/engraver point of view - if you post image of details of the enamelling, especially seeing how textures covered by enamels were imparted - this might help in making more educated guess at the work involved in making those parts. Curious to see if it was engine turned (guilloche techniqe) or press imparted in addition to hand work etc. If all enamelled aspect were done entirely in traditional champleve or basse-taille etc. techniques - you are talking a lot of hours and work. Bottom part also has blue enamelled border (cannot tell if black lines are enamelled too) in addition to all the engraved details. Could be combined work by more than one artist or came out of large workshop which utilized specialists of many kinds, general silversmith/jeweler making the frame/box; enameller/sculptor and then engraver adding the final touches to the piece. It looks like the enamelled plate is encased in the frame as opposed to one solid piece, which would be extremely time consuming to achieve.

 

[Guido.]

Hello Farmer57

Many thanks for reply and comments .it seems you may have an interest and knowledge of enameling ,that"s great ,a lot of my boxes have enamel work.. As you say it is usually very time consuming to achieve.
My feeling is that the plaque is all hand done (not guilloche, work) Not sure if figure cast or pressed or repousee method?
All engraving on plaque looks to me hand engraved.

Your comments about a few different makers involved makes sense to me.

As when it arrived from the interstate auction, I discovered something strange, When looking at it ,I found a loose cover plate (behind plaque) inside box. When I removed plate ,saw how plaque was held .After removing plaque ,I could see white enamel around all the corners,which was not visible,earlier.

I decided to make the top opening larger by removing the inside edge up to the end of the inner black enamel line (Now only one black line on top) To show more white enamel around edge.

A bit strange that I had to do this,My feeling an error in communication between maker of plaque and box maker?
opening made wrong size (to small) or replacement plaque from another box (most unlikely,size to close enamel colors matching on other sections of box)

All sections ,back plate ,claws holding plaque silver (gilded)

I have attached better images (close ups of plaque) Interesting no makers marks ,only Austrian import mark.

Some slight damage to fondant (clear enamel ,top coat) and another small area.
All colored sections enamel ,green blue,white . in champleve style (into engraving)

Interested in you thoughts ,If you feel I may be correct in my opinion.
Will show image of original purchase look. First image.

Regards Guido.

Regards Guido.

 

[Guido.]

I forgot to mention ,plaque slightly domed shape in center .To help with warping during enameling.

Regards Guido.

 

[Guido.]

Here is a box I made & engraved, red brass & nickel silver. Engraved h& c . Another in copper for “toot picks”.

Hi mtlctr

Great work ,well done always fun making our own things.
You may find this brass holder I made to hold ,my portrait miniature (circa 1650-60 on copper) interesting.
thanks for your comments.

Regards Guido.

 

[Guido.]

I forgot to mention ,plaque slightly domed shape in center .To help with warping during enameling.

Regards Guido.

All colors Black,White ,Green, Blue are enamel.

Regards Guido.

 

[Guido.]

More detail images ,may help with method of manufacture.
I feel gold and silver foil used under enamel ,on figure (silver) dress (gold,foil ) peacock (silver).

Regards Guido

 

[farmer57]

Guido,
Very nice box! Thanks for detailed photos.
I am quite certain it is predominantly champleve method with the figure and clouds either being left purposely raised higher (as in less material removed) or being repousse'd from the back and then sculpted and engraved to give desired details. Very time consuming affair in either case.
The clear enamel we call "flux" (not to confuse with soldering flux - which is entirely different thing). Usually, if fired on any silver under say .990 purity - you would apply clear flux first and then gradually apply colours in thin layers and fire over and over until desired effect is achieved. You can also mix flux with light colours to achieve very light effects or use enamel which is extremely lightly coloured (as in "touch of blue" or such). Achieving gradual colours is done by blending colour and flux as enamel is applied layer after layer (done with water to help blending - this is called 'wet packing' technique). If enamel is applied in too thick of a layer, it might crack and ping off the surface altogether since tensions between glass and metal will be fighting one another. As you've noticed, the plate is domed to help off-set the tensions or the enamel itself caused the slight doming (as it will most certainly do if the metal plate is not thick enough).
Also, what you see on the reverse - the not so nice looking white/blue mixture - we call this counter-enamel. This is fired first, before anything else - in order to help off set the future tension in the plate and prevent cracking of the enamel. Simply put - the rates of expansion/contraction due to heat are different in metal than glass - thus something might give (and it is usually glass). Enameling usually calls for heat around 1400-1500 ºF - hot enough for the metal to expand and contract.

I don't see any silver or gold foil in this work. Just flux on silver and light gold colour enamels around the redish. One cannot really engrave details over foil. Foil is applied to previously fired layer of flux and then more flux or colour follows over the top. Normally used on copper for extra 'shine' effects etc.

Reason flux is used on non fine (as in .999) silver is duo-fold; some colours are silver reactive and will cloud up upon firing and will only progress and worsen with multiple firings (often even change into different colours) and secondary to help with the undesirable effects of firescale, which may or may not show itself - really depends on the material one is working with and properties of enamels (enamels are not the same and can vary greatly in properties with different manufacturers). This is most important when working with transparent and semi-transparent enamels. Opaque colours are a bit more forgiving and you can usually just fire it without flux - again, some colours might react with silver so layer of flux or simple base colour (usually undercoating white etc) can be used. Traditionally, colours around the pink and red spectrum can be silver reactive. Blues and greens are a lot more friendly. And that's on silver. Enamels on Gold and Copper are yet another story.

The hinge side of the box is nice, with the trim lines and blue/green patterns. Some of those may have been acid etched and enameled but probably hand done if going by the rest.

I would wager the hole engraving/enameling work to take over 100 hours if done completely manually, if done with etchant - a bit less but not a lot.

 

[Guido.]

Hello Farmer 57
Many thanks
For you in depth explanation of the enamel work on the box.
Great to have someone that has the knowledge and expertise and understanding of the creative process.
I value your thoughts very much.
Because I feel I understand the skills and time and effort that goes into making some of these boxes,I probably value them more than most people ,that do not have the understanding of how they are done.

As you know many of these skills are from the past .and as labor keeps increasing in our modern times ,these lost hand skills will probably not happen any more. (if so ,very expensive,for similar product.)

As I said before I have some other enamel (work) in my box collection.
Hope you may find these interesting.

I am not sure what type of enamel work you do? I would be interested in seeing some of your work.

I have attached some images of some other enamel work ,a mixture of German (small round lid)c1900. English (Lady with hat)c1900 ,May be Geneva (Venus and cupid), Austrian (plique a jour,in lid,blue enamel base)c1820-40 ,may have been hanging plaque put on box later.

Japanese (kidney shape,with butterflies and flowers ,Adventurine enamel (shiny,flecks) and other colours,very fine detail all around box. c!880. One of my favorites.


Armenia (round box, blue, green ,red .yellow,enamel) c 1920-30

Kind regards Guido.

 

[Guido.]

Hi Farmer 57

some other images.
I have added another box,Pressed brass Gilded interior,very fine enamel detail,very small sections,not sure origin ?may be French c 1900?
Kind regards Guido

 

[Guido.]

Hi Farmer 57
Date of plique a jour box ,c1915.
Geneva,plaque Venus &Cupid c1820-40.
Regards Guido.

 

[farmer57]

Very nice examples of various enameling techniques. There's been a bit of resurgance of enameling work interest in the recent years. Previously, the craft itself was only being taught in relatively small circles of jewelers/enamelers but with the www - many people can get started relatively quickly and at least get their basic/intermediate information with ease.
Just like with hand engraving and thank to masters (Sam and all of our frequent professional contributors here - THANK YOU AGAIN !!!) who were/are willing to share and inform.
The "round lid" work and the "Venus & Cupid" - normally refered to as Limoges enameling or painted enamel technique. Thought to have been invented in town of Limoges (France) in 15th century. True form of artistry - if hand done (transfer method has been around for over 100 years now and silk screening for much longer) - can be hard to tell to untrained eye. Traditionally, counter enamelled and base coat of opaque (can be also transparent over reflective or over engraved or machine cut base) enamel is painted in many layers. Re-fired many times as new colours/layers/blands are applied. The painting enamels are very similar to regular enamels but very finely ground and usually in form of paint-like consistency, achieved by the added agent. Applied with brushes, quills, feathers or old style writing nibs. These painted enamels are normally fired with slightly lower temps or fired shorter. Very good knowledge of enameling and metal work is necessary with such techniques.
The "lady in the hat" is done in similar technique but with added (as you noticed) reflective aid - clearly visible on the green - could be silver foil here.
Plique-a -jour piece - this technique is very old and it simply means there is no 'backing' to enamels (and shows the light of the day when looked through - as in the stained glass effect). Normally (but no exclusively) achieved by cutting/removing patterns in metal sheet, voids are filled with enamel and fired on the flat sheets of mica (which does not stick to enamel). Enamel 'panels' can be mounted later or used on their own if large enough.
The "Japanese" box, that is a fine example of Cloisonne work. Very old technique, thought to be first utilized in China, several centuries ago. Thin metal wires (made of fine silver or copper) are arranged to separate colours and create designs. In the most basic form of this technique - base layer of flux enamel is fired first on the plate/object, cloisonne wires are then arranged (this can take very long time - depending on the complexity of the work). In the past, cloissone wires were hard soldered to the base (purely depending on the artist). When wires are fired over the base layer, they sink in through the enamel and form the cells. Cells are then filled with enamels and fired. This usually takes more than one application of the enamels and can take several firings. When enamels are somewhat flush with the tops of the wires - this can be either left as finished product or can be ground down (with stones or other grinding medium) and then left matte or fired again as a final firing (which will restore the glossiness of the enamel). Cloisonne technique is very interesting and has been combined with other forms of enameling for centuries. Looks like the "Armenian" box was done with twisted wire cloisonné and left not entirely filled (by enamel) to their tops - yet another interesting effect. Pieces of silver/copper/gold can also be 'embedded' to create additional patterns - there really is no rule-book here. Probably the most 'forgiving' technique to get started in enameling fun.

The "pressed brass" box - this reminds me of Basse Taille technique, where the metal is raised or depressed by chasing, carving, repousse, stamping or engraving and the whole surface is covered with transparent enamels.
Bear in mind, as a base metal 'standard' brass is not an alloy that takes enamel well due to zinc it it's composition. Zinc has tendency to boil through and pit the enamel and it is usually avoided. Gilding metal alloy has been around for centuries and is usually the choice if such 'yellow' metal is called for and gold is just too expensive of a medium or more durable material is needed. Bronze has been enameled over for very long time, with various success of longevity but often the 'secret' formula for this bronze alloy was kept as such. Normally, just called gilding metal, can be hard to tell apart from brass or other yellow alloys. Enamel grade Tombac is great example of such enamel friendly metal alloy and it contains no more then say 5% of zinc.

If you need more info, feel free to message me. I do quite a bit of work in museum restorations of small enamelled works but also create small custom jewelery - mostly in champleve/cloisonne styles.
Cheers!

 

[allan621]

farmer 57

Thanks for the description of the enamel styles and procedures both today and from Thursday. When I started engraving there was an a shop that produced enamel work but it was no questions asked, no answers given kind of place. Your knowledge and explanation are incredibly interesting. Thank you.

Allan

 

[Guido.]

Hi Allan
I agree great .work by Farmer 57.I noticed on private messages ,a limit on text ,and I could not understand how to attach images there.
So I have attached images here for Farmer57 here ,if that is okay.
images of damaged box and Transfer printed enamel flask ,Image on flask after original by Jacques Louis David 1748-1825.

Regards Guido.

 

[farmer57]

farmer 57

Thanks for the description of the enamel styles and procedures both today and from Thursday. When I started engraving there was an a shop that produced enamel work but it was no questions asked, no answers given kind of place. Your knowledge and explanation are incredibly interesting. Thank you.

Allan

Thanks Allan, glad to hear someone found it interesting! Enameling is quite a big field and so 'organically' tied to engraving in it's roots.

 

[farmer57]

Hi Allan
I agree great .work by Farmer 57.I noticed on private messages ,a limit on text ,and I could not understand how to attach images there.
So I have attached images here for Farmer57 here ,if that is okay.
images of damaged box and Transfer printed enamel flask ,Image on flask after original by Jacques Louis David 1748-1825.

Regards Guido. View attachment 52009 View attachment 52010 View attachment 52011 View attachment 52012 View attachment 52013 View attachment 52014 View attachment 52015

Beautiful pattern with moiré-like effect on the damaged box, this was most likely engine turned pattern.