Help, please: SOLVED: Problems setting up my new GraverMax

[jessberry]

EDIT: Solved!! Thank you so much to medaniel, who very kindly stepped in and suggested this might be due to not fully turning the handpiece selector all the way to my chosen handpiece. This was totally correct! Now the knob is fully turned all these issues have gone away and I'm good to go. Thank you to everyone who helped! <3

Hi everyone I've been lurking on here for a while, reading tips and advice, and last week I finally took the plunge and invested in a GraverMax. I was very excited to get it set up but am having a problem that I don't know how to solve. Thank you so much in advance for reading this post and any advice you can give, I really appreciate your time and help.

The issue I'm having is occurring when attempting to set up the handpiece. I raise the handpiece to my ear and turn the pressure knob about a fraction of a millimetre and it starts to knock, then when I turn it about another fraction of a millimetre it stops. The pressure is still reading "0" at this point but the handpiece is already vibrating lightly. If I attempt to turn the pressure up further, the handpiece knocks and buzzes unbearably and feels like it's about to jump out of my hand. I cannot turn the pressure higher than the "0" point or I fear the handpiece will break due to all the vibrating and knocking, and the tip of the graver is totally out of control at this point. If I try to cut obviously nothing happens because there's no pressure, and the foot throttle also does not work.

Two videos here (edited after the original post to add these):
https://flic.kr/p/2pAWzrh https://flic.kr/p/2pASLG6
My kit is:
Jun-air 6-25 (bought second hand on eBay) -> GRS Coalescing Air Filter & Oil-Removal Kit (new) -> supplied GRS GraverMax filter (new) -> GraverMax (new) -> foot throttle and 901 handpiece (new). 6mm pneumatic tubing used throughout (new).

I think I have set everything up correctly, but it is not working, so I'm hoping I've done something dumb and it's a quick fix.

Photo 1 shows the Jun-air 6-25.
Photo 2 shows that the internal pressure of the Jun-air reads 12 bar.
Photo 3 shows that I have set the compressor regulator pressure to 4.5 bar.
Photo 4 shows the front of the GraverMax before I have set up the handpiece.
Photo 5 shows the pressure dial at the point where the handpiece stops knocking.
Photo 6 shows the pressure dial at the point where the handpiece is vibrating uncontrollably.

There are no leaks anywhere in the whole system, and the Jun-air is definitely producing compressed air. I wait for it to cycle off and then switch on the GraverMax as the instruction manual says.

I really don't know what to do and hope someone has some advice. I live in the UK so cannot call the GRS helpline without incurring a huge phone bill, so hopefully I can sort it out here without having to do that. Has anyone experienced anything like this before?

Thank you so much in advance for any comments and advice,

Jess x

 

[rweigel]

Hi,

your air pressure setting at the gravermax is far too low. It needs turning up to stop the handpiece vibrating.

You need a certain air pressure to get the handpiece quiet, at lower pressure it will still knock, as the air pressure does not push the piston far enough to the front to stop knocking. For my asian handpiece this pressure is about 1.2 bar. When you open the throttle then, part of the air in the handpiece can escape through the venting path of the rotating valve, the spring pushes the piston back in this valve position, and the pressurised air pushes the piston forward against the spring when the pressurising path of the valve opens. This is a delicate balance, adjust it while holding the handpiece in working position, even the weight of the piston upsets the balance a little bit.

Is your foot throttle connected and closed? If it leaks a lot, you would need a higher air pressure to get your handpiece quiet.

Cheers

Ralf

 

[jessberry]

Hi Ralf,

Thank you so much for your reply ~ this is exactly the issue I'm having: I can't turn the pressure up higher without the handpiece going bonkers. I have tried turning it up to about 0.5bar and by that point it is vibrating so much I can hardly hold it, and the tip of the graver is a blur as the whole handpiece is vibrating. It is totally impossible to control and only gets worse if I increase the pressure. My understanding is that the handpiece should be quiet, then knock, then go quiet again. This happens in my setup, but all within the zero range and anything above that causes this mad vibrating. It definitely doesn't go quiet again at any point. Perhaps I should take a video?

My foot throttle is connected and closed, and there are no leaks in the system. Yesterday I powered up the compressor in the morning connected to my equipment and it cycled once, then not again all day. So nothing can be leaking much.

Thank you in advance for any more advice you have and let me know if a video would be helpful

Jess

 

[ByrnBucks]

Welcome Jessberry, glad to have you in the group. Here’s a picture of when my 901 hand piece becomes quite and happy give and take every time you turn it on slight adjustments should be made. Hope you get it running and start having fun. BB

 

[vondershred]

Hey Jess,

I’m having similar problems with my new Graversmith, I hope you get it sorted out. I’ll be watching this thread in case the solution for you also works for me.

Cheers,
Tristan.

 

[jessberry]

Hey again everyone, I decided that a video probably would be useful, so here's a link to one on Flickr. You can see how much the handpiece is jumping around by the end!

https://flic.kr/p/2pATqnC
My suspicion is that perhaps there's a regulator inside the GraverMax broken, so it's feeding low pressure, high flow air to the handpiece instead of high pressure, low flow air as it should. It'd be nice to know for sure though before returning the unit!

Thanks again in advance for any advice or info. Really appreciate your help

 

[wild willie]

i have the 901 as well, great hand piece. u need to have about 20 psi going into the machine. then turn it on and adjust the pressure nob above the spm nob to 12 psi +-. u can check this by holding the hand piece ,graver pointed up next to your ear and turn the psi nob just past where the hand piece knoxs. if this doesnt go as i described then get a allen wrench , turn the foot peddle upside down and adjust the pressure coming into the foot peddle. this is what controls the speed of the hand piece as u are working with it. hope that helps.

 

[rweigel]

When you use the handpiece with throttle closed and lower pressure than required, it will knock and rattle like hell. If you‘d like to avoid that range, turn the pressure up to 2 bar or so while the motor is still off, than start the motor and turn the pressure down until the handpiece starts knocking. Turn the pressure up again until the handpiece is quiet, but starts knocking very gently when you push the pedal the tiniest bit down.

Remember: the air pressure pushes the the piston forward, with the pedal released the piston has to be the most forward position, in permanent contact with the pin that transmits it‘s force to the graver or QC holder. The more you push the pedal down, the more it opens the venting path of the rotating valve, the more the spring pushes the piston back. As soon as the pressurising path opens again, the air pressure pushes the piston forward and it knocks against the graver holder. The further the piston was back, the stronger the knock.

When you start adjusting from almost zero pressure, the piston will at first oscillate about it‘s most backward position without knocking at the graver holder. In the worst case, it will oscillate along almost the whole travel path but still not knock on the graver holder. I believe that is the range were you went and are too afraid to turn the pressure up further. But about 1.2 to 1.5 bar is were you have to go.

I agree that it is a bit counterintuitive in the start, as you have to open the exhaust throttle more to get more powerful knocks. But once you succeeded with the adjustements, It will become natural.

Start with a medium SPM speed, either very low or high speeds required different pressure settings. In my experience, the best speed is close to the mechanical resonance of the piston-spring system, there you could extract maximum power from the pulsating air flow delivered by the rotating valve.

I gained understanding and experience how the piston-spring handpieces work by improving an asian engraving machine until it worked to my satisfaction. That includes repairing the electronics for SPM control, building new pedals with adjustable bias and flow regulation, and rebuilding the rotating valve.


Cheers

Ralf

 

[jessberry]

Hi Ralf,

Thank you for your advice again, I really appreciate it. Have you watched the video I uploaded? That will give more of a sense of what's happening, I think, and how much the handpiece is vibrating - you can see how much it's wobbling my hand around, and I do go all the way up to 1.2bar in that video though the dial is off screen. I've also made a second video, here, where you can see that I go all the way up to 1.2bar. I didn't want to go further than that because if you listen with the volume on you'll hear what a racket the handpiece is making, and at the end of the video I place it on a solid surface which it walks across rapidly due to how fast it's vibrating. In both videos you can see how much the handpiece is moving by how blurry my fingers are trying to hold it, and increasing the pressure doesn't solve this. It just gets noisier and vibrates even faster.

https://flic.kr/p/2pAWzrh
Perhaps I should add, I have done training on these machines and handpieces, where I set up the handpiece with no trouble. In the training session I don't remember it vibrating more than a tiny amount and it definitely didn't walk across the bench if I put it down. I think something strange is happening here but I'm not sure if it's the GraverMax, the handpiece, or something about how I have the compressor set up.

Thanks in advance for any more advice that you have, and thanks again for your help so far.

Jess

 

[ByrnBucks]

Good evening Jess, just a thought…. Is your auxiliary knob opened up? This bypasses the foot pedal needing to be pressed and give the hand piece constant air as though the foot pedal is pressed in….. couldn’t hurt to check

 

[jessberry]

Good evening Jess, just a thought…. Is your auxiliary knob opened up? This bypasses the foot pedal needing to be pressed and give the hand piece constant air as though the foot pedal is pressed in….. couldn’t hurt to check

Heya ByrnBucks, thank you so much for your suggestion and for explaining the aux knob as I wasn't sure how that worked before I've just gone to check and it's definitely shut however, so sadly no quick fix there. Thank you anyway though

 

[ByrnBucks]

Good evening Jess, just a thought…. Is your auxiliary knob opened up? This bypasses the foot pedal needing to be pressed and give the hand piece constant air as though the foot pedal is pressed in….. couldn’t hurt to check

Oops. I meant the Bias knob, sorry.

 

[jessberry]

Ohh, yeah that makes more sense actually! Bias knob is definitely turned all the way off too.

 

[alwayslearning2012]

just a thought....But I believe a set of instructions probably came with your gravermax. I'd strongly suggest that they be read and followed. If you are unable to find a solution, contact your sales rep. They are quite reachable. (Something I really love about Glendo).

Good luck, and welcome.

AL12

 

[jessberry]

Heya, thanks for your advice. I read both the quick set-up sheet and full manual thoroughly before unboxing the GraverMax and handpiece, and set them up exactly as described. That’s when these issues occurred.

I’ve been in contact with the shop that sold me all the equipment, and their technical advisor had no advice, and has instead emailed a repair person and GRS. As we’re based in the U.K., phone calls to GRS would be very expensive. So far neither the repair person nor GRS have replied.

I was hoping someone on here might have come across this problem before and there might be an easy fix, or it might be a known fault. It doesn’t seem to be something simple so I’m assuming it is a fault now ~ for some reason the GraverMax is allowing far too much air through to the handpiece. So if there is no solution forthcoming when the shop gets back to me, I’ll return both GraverMax and handpiece and hope the new ones work as they should!

Thanks again for your advice

Jess

 

[AllenClapp]

You can go onto the GRS website, go to the SUPPORT page, and scroll down to email them for help. Greg Gentry is the repair guru that you need to work with.

 

[jessberry]

Thank you Allen, that’s really helpful. I’ll email him right away

 

[alwayslearning2012]

Thank you Allen, that’s really helpful. I’ll email him right away

Please keep in mind that the machine shop there works 4-10s so he's probably away for the weekend.

But Be patient, I have no doubt they will attend to you.

GRS has a copy of the manual for the G8

https://grs.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/LIT-323_GraverMaxG8_22.pdf

Another thing, and I don't think it was overlooked, but it could have been. Where did you buy this machine from? And is the voltage output of the receptacle your plugged into, compatible for the machine itself?

The US uses 120v @ 60hz for almost everything electrical.

United Kingdom operates on a 230V supply voltage and 50Hz. (according to google)

Just looking at one of the videos, your pressure is too low. I have a Gravermach AT. Here is where I'm at, and it's working fine for me. hope this helps. Good Luck mate.

AL12

P.S. the box the compressor stays in is lined with foam. I built the box, because the compressor was so loud.
It really helps with the noise level. I do plan on building a better one that might make it even quieter. But it's fine for now.

 

[jessberry]

Heya AL12,

Thanks so much for your advice. I bought the GraverMax and 901 from a shop approved by GRS on their website, and it’s come with a UK plug requiring 230V as you suggest. I reckon GRS must supply models ready for the UK market to their UK dealers.

Re the pressure, perhaps I’m wrong but I think we’re running very similar pressures and mine are slightly higher than yours? It’s hard to see in the video but I’ve attached a couple of photos. My tank is at 175psi/12bar and my outlet is at 65psi/4.5bar. I think yours are at around 125psi/10bar (tank) and 55psi/4bar (outlet)? I read in the manual that the GraverMax should be supplied with a minimum of 3bar and a maximum of 8bar which is why I set my outlet to 4.5bar. Please let me know if I’m wrong about this though as I’m very new to the world of compressors!

The foam is a neat idea for noise reduction. But does the compressor not get too hot inside? I bought an oil compressor so mine isn’t too noisy anyway

I have emailed Greg Gentry at GRS now with all this info so hopefully I’ll have an answer soon. I’ll be sure to report back when I do!

Thanks again for your help!

Jess

 

[medaniel]

Every once in a while, I have experienced something similar and it has boiled down to the hand piece selector knob. I just run the knob from one hand piece to the other, making sure the knob is fully turned to the proper place. I frequently switch from one hand piece to another and sometimes I get a bit careless with the select knob. Good luck!!