Workholding under a scope

[Swede]

Hello everyone! I've been lurking for a while, and really soaking in (and researching) what I hope will be a very fulfilling endeavor. I've messed a bit for years with push gravers, hammer + chisel, etc, mostly just enjoying the act of attempting to create appropriate engraving for hand-crafted muzzleloaders. These rifles almost never, except for the finer European weapons, exhibit what you'd call high-end engraving, just some basic border work and modest scrollwork on the lockplate and such.

Anyway, I want to move forward. I plan on setting up with a stereo microscope and some better tools. In researching microscope use, it seems that the majority of users set up their blocks with zero tilt, and use a turntable or adapt a drill-press table to keep the work centered underneath the microscope. Since the turntable is used to rotate, and the engraving block not tilted, and locked to boot, why not forego the engraving block and simply use a high quality workholding device, such as a lathe chuck, machinists vise, or similar? For example:

All I did for this demo pic is drop a lathe chuck on a drill press turntable, just to illustrate. Similarly:

A nice machinist vise would do the trick as well. Anything inherently wrong with this concept? A good vise can be equipped with jaws that mimic the flexibility of a true engraver's block with ease. Am I out in left field? Thanks! I need to economize a bit!

 

[Barry Lee Hands]

Hi Swede,
That should work, espescially for hammer and chisel. The good points are the mass and the adjustability for height. The weak point may be the inability to turn that easily for push gravering. A push graver is like the tool post on a lathe, and the work is like the chuck, the work is turned into the cutting tool. That is why the freeturning engraving block is so popular, it is easy to turn into the graver. If you put a big bearing under that chuck, it would eliminate some of that concern.

 

[monk]

muzzle loader engraving

hay swede: the old front stuffers weren't usually done in what one would call very fine style. some were rather pretty, some crude. check out the book " kentucky rifle patchboxes" by chandler. you'll see what i mean if you're tryin to recreate a period sort of theme, you don't want to get real fine like you see being done under the scope these days. that guy, whats his name, sam alfonso, or something like that the very
elegant exceptionally fine work he does would not "go" on a period type piece like the front stuffers. i'm afraid the master alfano is woefully overquallified for this type work. if you're interested, i'm selling the chandler book, and a few others as well. monk45@verizon.net

 

[Mike Bissell]

Hi Swede - When I first started out engraving I did just as you are contemplating. I went with the machinists vise, and had it mounted on a large bearing so that it would rotate. This worked for me for awhile. Let me explain. At that time I was using an optivisor and it did not require me to snuggle up to my work. But when I switched to the microscope I found that the screw on the machinist vise would hit me in the belly thus I could not rotate the vise smoothly. Ya I know the people who know me are probably chuckling about now, but that’s ok by me. So I guess I would try the lath chuck and have it so the drill press bed does the rotating. These are just my thoughts; I hope it helps you some.

Mike

 

[Billzach]

I used a lathe chuck welded onto the top of a a machinist rotary vise for about 3 years, this allowed me to tilt and rotate my lathe chuck.. I had the lathe chuck set up to hold coins while i carved them..I later changed over to a grs standard engraving vise, but later i went to the grs positioning vise.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Swede

Be careful with that one. If all you were doing was working on a flat plane you would be fine.

Once you start getting into anything curved you will strike problems. Because the scope is fixed then you have to move your work. The turntables are great for rotating but a gun part with a bend in it will have to be tipped so that the part on the curve can be parralel to the lens on the scope. Even a minor curve like a floor plate or a patch box sometimes have to be slightly tipped over.

Just something else to think about. Whoever said life was supposed to be simple

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Cody]

My first setup was a machinist vice (and a VERY cheap one at that) sitting on a turntable (record player). Remember those?. I took the belt off underneath so the turntable would turn freely and proped up the back with 2x4's to tip the whole thing towards me. Maybe we all watched too much "McYver" when we were young?.

Cody

 

[Fred Bowen]

And there is the always the half bowling ball with a vise screwed to the flat side and mounted on a small rubber tire for an inexpensive engraving ball.

 

[Glenn]

Swede, the people who build the engravers equipment have already been down the bumpy road of experimentation. Price has always been peoples first concern. I'm a guy who always looks for a good deal and trys to cobble things together.
I've come to learn that as my skills have improved my equipment was not keeping up. Hence, I've ended up buying the professionally built grs equipment. Now I'm much happier with my equipment and my engraving has improved.
Remember! Long after the price is forgotten the quality remains.

 

[JJ Roberts]

Swede,
Take Barry's & Glenn's advice and get a good engraver's vise..GRS Magnablock or Ray Letourneau's. My Letourneau vise sits on a pedestal..the Magnablock sits on a GRS shelf mounted to a bench. I have 2 Victor's
one is 16lbs., the other is 12. Try to buy the best.

Barry,
You have been to Italy several times..I am curious about the vise the Italian engravers use while standing.Is there a company in Italy I could contact to buy one, and how much?

Yours truly,
JJ

 

[Swede]

Thank you all for the sound advice. I was fairly certain that I'd be buying the correct workholding equipment; just wanted to run this by you and see if it was feasible. My goal is to go beyond the simple/crude engraving found on muzzleloaders... I want to advance my skill, and to do that I need the proper tooling and technique.

I'm going to really show my noob status with this question (I have never worked with a true engraving block)... Let's say you're doing some scroll work with a Gravermach under a scope. You're right-handed, so the pneumatic tool is in your right hand. As the scroll curves, your left hand rotates the upper half of the vise. The base of the block is snuggled into its leather or plastic pocket, and is fixed. Is this a correct assumption?

I think I'm confused a bit. I've seen some photos here on this site of some very clever setups, with the magnablock (or similar) vise set up on a drill press table. My understanding was that the DP table adjusts vertically (helps focus with the scope, and hand position), has a wide surface (so the block vise can be moved laterally so the center of rotation stays below the scope), and rotates. It's this last part I'm puzzled about. Do those of you who have this type of setup lock the vise down and use the DP table as a rotating mechanism? Or is the vise the correct tool to rotate? I'm guessing the latter, because if you're rotating the DP table, and the vise is not dead centered on it, you'll be chasing the work all over the DP table as it rotates! I think I just answered my own question.

Time for a magnablock! Thanks again.

 

[KSnyder]

Swede, I'm a rifle builder as well , my set up is similar to yours except my 4 jaw south bend is on a pedestal & 1" cold roll shaft that goes through the top of my bench,it rides on 2 bearing sets. It has a potters wheel on the bottom I move with my feet. I dont use a scope so curved surfaces I can do if needed.
I have a magna-block but almost never use it.Some day if I do get a scope the mag block will come in handy.
Kent

 

[monk]

turntable

My first setup was a machinist vice (and a VERY cheap one at that) sitting on a turntable (record player). Remember those?. I took the belt off underneath so the turntable would turn freely and proped up the back with 2x4's to tip the whole thing towards me. Maybe we all watched too much "McYver" when we were young?.

Cody

my first "power hone" was a trashed & drastically modified turntable with a plexiglass disk and 600 wet/dry paper. it worked for a couple years till i could afford a powerhone. once in a while i still use an ancient bowling ball vise, but will deny it if ever taken to court !

 

[monk]

ml engraving

Thank you all for the sound advice. I was fairly certain that I'd be buying the correct workholding equipment; just wanted to run this by you and see if it was feasible. My goal is to go beyond the simple/crude engraving found on muzzleloaders... I want to advance my skill, and to do that I need the proper tooling and technique.

I'm going to really show my noob status with this question (I have never worked with a true engraving block)... Let's say you're doing some scroll work with a Gravermach under a scope. You're right-handed, so the pneumatic tool is in your right hand. As the scroll curves, your left hand rotates the upper half of the vise. The base of the block is snuggled into its leather or plastic pocket, and is fixed. Is this a correct assumption?

I think I'm confused a bit. I've seen some photos here on this site of some very clever setups, with the magnablock (or similar) vise set up on a drill press table. My understanding was that the DP table adjusts vertically (helps focus with the scope, and hand position), has a wide surface (so the block vise can be moved laterally so the center of rotation stays below the scope), and rotates. It's this last part I'm puzzled about. Do those of you who have this type of setup lock the vise down and use the DP table as a rotating mechanism? Or is the vise the correct tool to rotate? I'm guessing the latter, because if you're rotating the DP table, and the vise is not dead centered on it, you'll be chasing the work all over the DP table as it rotates! I think I just answered my own question.

Time for a magnablock! Thanks again.

sometimes i speak and don't clearly say what i mean, swede. your engraving need not be "crude". it can, and should be clean as can be. it's just that much of the design work done back in those days- the design itsself was usually not very elegant. many of the tools that produced those engravings, by todays standards, would probably be relegated to the scrap pile. and for many of the guys who did the engraving, these guys were more genius mechanic than artist. that these guns ever got engraved is a wonder ! for us today to look at that work, when you consider the source, the work is truly remarkable. these guys had no lightbulbs, loupes, powerhones, hell i don't even think the internet was but in its' infancy then !