Question: background removal vs placing cut peices of metal?

[patek philippe]

Can anyone tell me the reason that some people cut engraved pieces out and place in the engraving instead of carving/background removal ?
I see some people do a lot of background removal, but I see some cut metal pieces out and place them on top of the engraving and would like to know from you experts what is the reason for this, I appreciate any info on this, thanks.

 

[John B.]

Are we talking about steel/iron pieces inlaid over steel ? Or gold over gold ?
Or are we talking about inlaying dissimilar metals ie. gold over steel or gold over silver etc.?
Dissimilar metals are usually added for contrast and similar metals for dimension and drama.

 

[Sinterklaas]

Here a video about INLAY:

Here a video about DAMASCENE (overlay) :

hope this helps

 

[patek philippe]

Are we talking about steel/iron pieces inlaid over steel ? Or gold over gold ?
Or are we talking about inlaying dissimilar metals ie. gold over steel or gold over silver etc.?
Dissimilar metals are usually added for contrast and similar metals for dimension and drama.

I know what inlay is, but I see people cut a peice

Are we talking about steel/iron pieces inlaid over steel ? Or gold over gold ?
Or are we talking about inlaying dissimilar metals ie. gold over steel or gold over silver etc.?
Dissimilar metals are usually added for contrast and similar metals for dimension and drama.

I mean like this http://instagr.am/p/BuLs_ZPjv1C/

 

[John B.]

I am still having a problem understanding you, sorry ?
Your coin picture looks like it has a raised silver inlay that is still lacking sculpture and detail.
Am I misinterpreting your picture. ?
If I'm correct, when this is finished it would give the impression of a figure raised above the known background level.
I have sometimes inlaid a raised soft iron inlay/overlay into a slab sided rifle or shotgun and blued or French grayed the whole thing. It creates an illusion of the figure rising above the known background level and many people have asked if the background was milled away to leave the figure raised above the background.
With a silver coin and silver inlay/overlay no finishing is required. Just careful burnishing.
Inlay/overlays can be constructed out of multiple wires or cut out from a sheet of the desired metal.
I find when inlaying/overlaying like metal into like backgrounds it is best to use the sheet method. Sheet soft iron inlay/overlays usually require a thin layer of pure gold, silver or copper soldered to the back in order for it to cling to the burrs.

 

[pmace]

I believe the question is why you would choose to inlay a solid piece cut out from a sheet rather than build it up out of smaller wires. I believe the reason comes down to the size of the inlay and final treatment. If it is relatively small and is not going to be sculpted after setting then it’s built up out of wire. If it is big and is going to be sculpted then a solid piece of sheet makes more sense.

 

[jerrywh]

Any type of inlay or overlay depends on the type of base matal and the type of inlay material. I see your cavity but what type of metal is the base metal made of and what do you intend to inlay into it?

 

[John B.]

patek.
When I first saw your coin photo it appeared to have an unfinished inlay, not just a cavity.
The photo now shows a pre-sculptured inlay being inserted into the cavity.
i don't see any signs of an undercut perimeter or burr field to hold the inlay.
Is it going to soldered into the coin or what?
The obvious answer to your original question is that the engraver, in this instance wished for the sculptured silver figure to be raised high above the original background of the coin.
Their wise choice was to use a sheet inlay because it is difficult to hammer weld a silver wire inlay making a cohesive piece, in a silver background.

 

[patek philippe]

patek.
When I first saw your coin photo it appeared to have an unfinished inlay, not just a cavity.
The photo now shows a pre-sculptured inlay being inserted into the cavity.
i don't see any signs of an undercut perimeter or burr field to hold the inlay.
Is it going to soldered into the coin or what?
The obvious answer to your original question is that the engraver, in this instance wished for the sculptured silver figure to be raised high above the original background of the coin.
Their wise choice was to use a sheet inlay because it is difficult to hammer weld a silver wire inlay making a cohesive piece, in a silver background.

This is exactly what I mean why would you do this as opposed to engraving that shape and then background removal for the 3d effect instead of this way?

 

[allan621]

John knows what he is talking about.

But here's a reply from someone with no experience in inlay. Its probably just easier to do this specific piece that way. If its put on a setter's shelac or hot glue you can really shape the legs round without worrying about rubbing on the other ornamentation already done at the side of the knees. Plus if you look closer, the area of the abdomen is actually below the cutout space and then its rounded, not flat to give it more dimension. Kind of hard to do its locked into place in the coin.

Plus it might be easier to see what your doing. If its put on the top of setters shelac or hot glue applied to a narrow peice of wood it sits in a kind of isolation. You can hold it up and examine it on all sides to see what still needs doing. Easier than if it was on the coin. Plus, look for a picture of the finished coin, lots scroll work to be done and having the figure removable makes it all work better.

The circumstances on the Hog-Zogan video are much different. That's a pretty thick piece of metal and only the bottom is held in place. The thickness of what lies above the surface gives much more clearance to work on it.

BTW.. thanks for posting the original video. Its a beautiful piece of work and I can't stop looking at it . This engraver's coin work is complex, incredibly creative, beautiful and occasionally hilarious. Truly in a class of his own.

Allan

 

[Jonathan.Silas]

This is exactly what I mean why would you do this as opposed to engraving that shape and then background removal for the 3d effect instead of this way?

In this case, with Japanese tsuba his inlay metal and his base metal are different alloys so that when he finishes them with different treatments they come out different colors. Different alloys of gold, silver and copper can produce very different colors. If he had just done background removal he would not get the color variant. This is akin to inlaying silver into bright steel. In the "White" they look the same, when you blue the steel the silver jumps out because it doesn't react the same.