Beginner Needing HELP!!!

[jmcutting]

Hey there everyone! First let me say that I am in awe in looking at all the work everyone does and know that I am far from anything you do. I have started engraving here recently largely due to the fact I am a long time horseman and have a huge appreciation for the cowboy arts. I am an addict, everytime I enter a tack shop I usually walk out with a new bit or set of spurs. My wife hates it but hey she uses the bits too!

So on to my reason for starting this post. I have gotten the basics down on engraving and would like to try my hand on making my first set of silver spurs. I have a set of spurs that have no silver and would like to add silver to them. I have purchased a torch set that uses Oxygen & Mepp and got a 1" steel bar from the harware store to practice on. I bought some Medium Silver Solder and have been using Cooper to practice engraving on. I attempted to solder a piece of cooper this weekend and well it didn't go well. I fluxed it well and placed the cooper on the bar. I cut small pieces of silver solder and placed them around the outer edge of the cooper. I then heated it from the bottom which caused the flux to bubble. Then after the solder hardly did anything after a minute or so I just heated it until the bar was red. I attempted this multiple times and just didn't have any luck.

I feel somewhat embarassed to even ask you guys since you are such amazing artists. If anyone already has something or could help me out I would greatly appreciate any help you could provide. I have been reluctant to even mess with silver until I have a general idea on what I am doing.

thanks ahead of time!

-justin

 

[KSnyder]

Justin, If it comes up to the right temp the solder should flow if the metals clean. I usually don't use silver solder cuz you got to get it pretty hot for it to run. Some silver solder has cadmium in it as well & the fumes are toxic.I use a low temp hi-strength solder from Brownells that they use for joining shotgun barrels. It melts at a much lower temp and when polished blends in fairly well.
It is stronger than all get out I use it on silver all the time.
When soldering I use a carbon block that doesn't conduct heat like the steel does, that steel is sucking up the heat like a sponge and as soon as the heat from the torch is took away it starts to cool & temp goes down and the solder don't run.
the buckle (beads & wire) is soldered up with the Brownells stuff.
hope I didn't confuse U too much.
Kent

 

[LRB]

Nice buckle. Tastefully done.

 

[Karl Stubenvoll]

Justin-

I'm a bit concerned about using mapp gas. It's really dirty and may be contaminating your joint before the solder can flow. I've used oxygen/acetylene for years on my jewelry work. I'm using oxygen/hydrogen now, but often miss the greater control over flame size I used to have ("The Little Torch" with oxy/acetylene.) A very clean flame can be had with oxygen/propane---a 20 lb. tank with the proper regulator will seem to last for ever.

 

[diane]

Hi Justin. What works for us is the solder that Kent is talking about that gunsmiths use on shotgun barrels. We buy it at the local hardware. It has several names, but is refered to as "95/5". Lead free. It has a nice white color and melts at about 420 degrees. This means that it will not make a mess of the steel (firescale) but will still stand the heat of blueing salts when it is time to finish. Plus, it is really strong. We only use it when overlaying silver, etc., on steel. If you are fabricating a mouth piece, then you will want to use the high temp silver solder. You might find it easier to "tin" your overlay piece - flow some solder on the back. Make sure your fit is perfect and hold with clamps to keep it in place. (We use cotter keys that have been blacked and bent into clamps. They are soft enough not to mar your overlay.) Too much heat will cause the solder to burn and it will not work.

Ksydner is right about the heat sink. Make sure that if you are using high temp solder that there is nothing to draw the heat away from the parts being soldered together. Plus, keep everything super clean.

We use an oxy/acetylene torch. It works well for us, but others work also. The prestolite works well when working with large objects like bits and spurs. Good luck.

Diane

 

[jmcutting]

First let me thank everyone for their help, it is greatly appreciated. I can't wait to go back and try it again. I was originally under the understanding that I should use Medium Silver Solder to the added strength and that the softer lower temp. flowing solder wasn't as good. I apologize but I still have a few questions:

1. I purchased my torch kit at my local hardware store. It came with both gas canisters. Would I be wrong to assume that I can just use an acetylene or propane canister with this kit instead of the Mapp?

2. Originally I thought it was best to heat the steel from the bottom and not directly to the silver (copper). Now if I tin it I would just heat directly on the silver to set the solder to the steel?

3. Kent, I love your buckle. You said you use the 95/5 solder to do the beads and wire. Do you tin these as well or flow your solder along them?

Thanks again for all your help, this makes me excited to go back and try it now, since I was getting pretty frusturated after my last attempt.

-justin

 

[Tim Wells]

Diane, What is prestolite? Does anyone know where to get one of those carbon blocks?

 

[Dave London]

Prestolite

Tim
Prestolite is a brand name of a torch used for soldering, old main stay for plumbers and gold / silver smiths. Uses acetlyne gas & hoter than propane or mapp.

 

[Tom Curran]

For high temp soldering, your flux has to be matched to the solder you are using.

If you use a low melt flux with a high temp solder, the flux will be long over heated before the solder begins to melt. The most you'll get are little balls of solder sitting on your work.

 

[jmcutting]

Tom,

If I was to use "95/5". Lead free flux what type of flux would you recommend?

-justin

 

[diane]

We use "Stay-Brite" flux with the 95/5 solder. The place where you buy the solder should have an appropriate flux. After tinning the overlay piece, place it on the steel and heat from under the steel. This will pull the solder to the steel. One easy gauge to see if you are getting too hot is to watch the color of the steel. If it turns blue, you are too hot. Also, the flux will burn and be a black mess at this point. We use lots of flux - it is not expensive. When silver soldering, Handy Flux is a good choice.

I am not familiar with Mapp gas. Prestolite is the brand name of what is commonly called a plumber's torch. It is good for trophy buckles, bits and spurs because you have a lot of mass to heat. (We use two or three different size tips.)

Let us know how it goes. Diane

 

[diane]

Bob just corrected me on the prestolite - it uses acetylene and air.
Diane

 

[monk]

your engraving is quite nice. as for soldering, the metals before you begin must be very clean. when i remove flux from the bottle ( a dropper bottle ) i just remove a few drops at a time. the unused portion, i never return it to the stock bottle. working with genuine silver solder, 1 snippet at a time is a pain i avoid at all cost ! the purists will stone me for this, but that's ok. when handling the solder, don't use fingers. handle with forceps or tweezers. you want to keep the stuff clean as poss.

 

[JourneymanBuilder]

Not sure about the silver solder you were trying to use, but if it was "plumbers silver solder" 99% of that stuff does not require flux, if you use flux it will not take.

 

[KSnyder]

The solder i used on the buckle I get at Brownell's non-toxic hi-strength low temp. the flux they recommend is called "comet". I'm not affiliated with Brownell's but they have a lot of nice products.
As for the silver beads & wire , the beads were strung & soldered to the wire, the 1/2 round wire was tinned first then clamped & soldered to the buckle. To stop the beads & wire from unduing from the heat as i worked around the buckle I used a anti-heat paste which is applied to the areas you don't want to un-solder,then washes right off after the soldering is done.
The carbon block(I got the hard one) i purchased at Rio Grande.
the anti- heat paste from Brownells.
for the heat I use propane usually or mapp gas & oxygen. As far as mapp gas being "dirty" I haven't really noticed that, I been using it for solder, brazing etc. I use it on silver , copper, steel, brass. Mapp gas is a h$ll of a lot hotter than propane.I been using it for about 20 yrs as a gun maker.
Kent

 

[jmcutting]

Wow I never would have imagined I could get this much help. Thanks so much for everyone's assistance.

Well here is my latest update. Last night I took another shot at it. I went to Menards and picked up the only 95/5 Solder I could find but it was primarily "Tin". I didn't know if this was the solder that Diane was mentioning or not. I might just order some from Brownells to make sure I am using the right stuff. I also got some flux that said it was for 95 solder. I was successful in soldering the copper together with no problem. But when i attempted to set the copper to the steel it still didn't set. The solder covered the bottom of the copper but nothing adheared to the steel. I think that I maybe don't have the steel clean. Or I used too much flux? Which is the only thing I can think of? Is there something I can get to help prep the metals?

Thanks again to everyone who has helped!

-justin

 

[John B.]

Wow I never would have imagined I could get this much help. Thanks so much for everyone's assistance.
The solder covered the bottom of the copper but nothing adheared to the steel. I think that I maybe don't have the steel clean. Or I used too much flux? Which is the only thing I can think of? Is there something I can get to help prep the metals?

Thanks again to everyone who has helped!

-justin

Hi Justin.
Is your steel plain carbon steel or is it stainless.?
Many types of Stainless won't take solder unless you have the right thing.
Just a thought, John B.

 

[Jim-Iowa]

JM: I have to add slightly to John B's post. I see you are buying supplies from Menards.
I have to ask if your steel came from there, as I bought a length of 3/8" rod there two weeks ago that apears to have been plated with a nickel like substance that may be contributing to your problem?
You would need to get down to the base metal before soldering.

 

[jmcutting]

Jim,

That sounds exactly what I bought, I didn't even think about it being plated. It was with the welding products so just figured it would be ready to solder to. I will see if I can sand it down to the metal and try again.

Thanks,

-justin

 

[Dave London]

JM
If you got 95/5 mosty tin solder that is not silver solder and will not join steel and copper as you found out.It is used in plumbing for copper piping in heating systems and is a pain to use it for that just with copper it has a very short tempature range where it will flow right. Go with the stay bright brand low temp silver bearing solder usually comes in a plastic tube with a bottle of liguid flux included. Most welding supply stores will have it as well as brownells. Good Luck Dave
PS as Monk stated clean, clean, clean do not touch after cleaning with hands or start over