beginning help?

[redletter1]

so i have been reading forum after forum, website after website... i know i want to learn how to engrave. i have been buildiing small machines on my mill for a while and i would like to jump into the engraving now. im pretty sure im going to start attending the stockton jewellery arts school (if anybody has please let me know what you think) but i also feel like maybe i should just jump in the water, buy the gear and start hacking away at scrap metal until i have it figured out. but then what would i buy? it appears the lindsay is the way the go but maybe thats just organized hype and advertising...its hard to believe anything online. most of the work i want to do will be on steel under 3" sq...im not looking to make scroll work or inlay...im more interested in the look of old durer or dore etchings...only tiny...like this
<img src="http://www-cs.engr.ccny.cuny.edu/~wolberg/projects/engraving/durer.jpg">
does anyone have any advice? anything i should stay away from?

 

[Sam]

There is world class work done with both Lindsay and GRS tools, and there are plenty of users of both systems on this forum.

Welcome to the Cafe! / ~Sam

 

[monk]

beginning help

my best advice: for starters forget the fancy power equipment. at least for a time. get the honest feel of a graver and how they work in the metal. it's a beautiful feel that is lost with the power stuff. i use lindsay and grs gravermeister. and sometimes, i just don't tramp on the dang pedal ! the gravermeister and its brothers and sisters will have you plowing thru metal faster than billy be damn ! but what does honest to god hand engraving feel like ? you owe this experience to yourself ! remember, the folks whose works you so admire, these guys never heard of a gravermeister. yet look at what they did ! i don't really think you can "experience" engraving with the power tools. to gradually exert pressure on one of the graver handles and to see and feel the cutter go thru the motions orchestrated by your wrist, you lose this precious feeling with the power tools.

 

[redletter1]

monk...thats such a wonderful response...i all most feel stupid for not think of that first. im going to take your advice and start simple. for some reason i just assumed that i needed these fancy little tools to start. thanks for the advice. that was just what i was looking for.

 

[ihsfab]

Redletter1 what Monk said is very true but it does become frustrasting when you are trying to start out and learn the basic's on your own. You could spend months learning what you could learn in a week from taking a class. I think that Brian's class offers GRS, Lindsay or push graver for tools. It kind of nice to have someone look over your shoulder every once in a while to help you out wether its in a class or from someone local.

 

[John B.]

You'll get great satisfaction out of starting by hand. H&C or push as Monk said.
You would be well advised to take Brian's class.
One of the most important things to learn is the shaping and sharpening of your gravers.
Without this knowledge you will struggle with any method, machine or hand.
Other than sharpening equipment, laps or stones, the first tool to buy IMO is an engravers block ball vise.
Go see Brian, he has a class starting this month and is fairly close to you.
Brian will demo the correct sharpening on both power laps and hand stones.
Other than the hand push you want to start with he will expose you to all the machine handpieces and different vises on the market for your future reference.
Best of luck with your engraving adventure.
John B.

 

[Ron Smith]

Monk, I believe you love the hand tools as much as I do. Just can't give them up, but can't push the palm tool except for light cuts now. Can't argue with your sentiments at all, but maybe I'm biased.

Redletter1,....I would say if you are in a hurry to get to cutting, the pneumatic tools can't be beat. If you want to experience the greatest challenge there is, do it with the hand tools. There is nothing quite like it. It sounds like you are going to be doing small enough stuff that the hand pushing techniques might not be too hard for you with the light tedious lines. If you are interested in getting into all phases, and I bet you will once you try it; being a well rounded engraver requires a lot of knowledge and using the push tools for everything is sometimes frustrating, but very gratifying to see what you can do just with your bare hands. Good luck on your efforts and keep us posted..........Ron S

 

[redletter1]

well thanks for all of the advice. i am going to start by learning how to polish the gravers and pick up the equipment to do that...well it would appear that this should be my first step.
can anyone recommend any "good" books or videos on engraving or polishing gravers? i think a good book may help...are there any books that may seem an obvious read to someone who is skilled in engraving?

 

[KSnyder]

my thoughts as well, h & C and or push will give you a solid foundation on tool geometry, cutting action etc.
Best to learn how to drive in a Ford or Chevy, not a Porsche imho.
Kent

 

[monk]

the "book" is by mr. james b. meek. it is the holy bible for hand engravers. it covers all phases of the engravers' art that a beginner must come to grips with. the 2 videos i own lettering by s. alfano, and western bright work by d. scalise- both good- but not quite for the beginner. i have to think most any video by s. alfano or by any engraver sold by fega or grs, will be a good investment. these people are not only great engravers, they also have that special desire to teach others. this makes their videos easier to learn from. you also should take a 1 on 1 class if ever possible. best of luck

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Redletter

I've reposted your link here http://www-cs.engr.ccny.cuny.edu/~wolberg/projects/engraving/durer.jpg so people can see what you are trying to achieve.

There are three roads you can take...............

1. All hand (eg. Push graver and hammer and chisel and sharpen by hand.
2. Power assist (eg. Air assist with GRS, Lindsay and Ngraver)
3. A combination of both

The question you want to ask yourself is. How much time do I have to learn all this stuff?

No matter what road you choose you are in for a very steep but interesting learning curve.

The one thing I would highly recommend is that you buy a power hone and sharpening fixture. You can't cut with a blunt graver or one that isn't sharpened properley. The power hone/sharpening fixture will get you going in that direction within minutes..................how you go from there is then up to you but you may as well give yourself a decent start at it.

If money isn't a huge issue for you then I would personally recommend going the power assist way. GRS, Lindsay and Ngraver are all good tools and well worth the money. The advantage is that you will progress forward considerabley quicker.

If money is a consideration then the hand method is a good choice. The disadvantage is that you will be a lot slower in your initial progress.

The thing is that your engraving, no matter what tools you buy, will only be as good as the amount of time, study and passion that you are prepared to put into it. All the tools, both hand and power assist are only as good as the hand that guides them.

Of course the big thing is that you start somewhere to see if you actually enjoy engraving.

Good luck on your jouney

Cheers
Andrew

 

[redletter1]

thank again for the great advice. i believe the image above is actually a wood block but that is the style i want to learn. not to take anything away from the fancy scrolls and inlays. im sure learning scrolls would be a huge benefit to engraving imagery, its just not what i want to make for finished product.
i dont know how much time i will have to spend with this...i dont know how much time you need to dedicate. 80 a week? 3 hours a day? sunday? who knows? im know the more time i spend the better i would get, obvisouly. i would guess that i wont have a problem spending time at learning. i usually obsess when i try to learn something new. ive been painting professional for 10 years and its not rare for me to paint 80 hours a week....lots of coffee. i will start by learning how to polish the gravers. im going to pick up a hone and start there.
im going to check out the stockton jewellery school this week and see if they have any advice.
thanks for all the help, you guys are all great.

 

[redletter1]

i went out to the stockton jewllery school and talked with brian for a few hours. what a great guy. he showed me through the school and explained the tools and how to start. so i ordered the gravers, a hone and some hand tools to start. i definitly going to take some privates from him in the future...when i hit the wall and get confused...im sure it will happen soon.

 

[nicglass1]

here's my 2 cents and a newbie with no experience, no classes, but i am pretty much where you are. i use an OLD gravermeister (inherited from grandfather) and push tools. and in all honesty i can generally cut better with the push gravers than i can with the power set up. i don't know if that is becuase of the slow stroke speed or the horrible handpiece i have, but unless i am removing background i don't use it much. so if it comes down to it, take the money you were going to spend on a power set up and take a class, buy you some push gravers to get started with and have some fun

 

[djfamine]

I'm more or less in the same boat, however, I don't have access or resources for a class. I've read Meeks, and I'm working though one of the books cited there, "The Jewelry Engravers Manual". I'm reluctant to invest large sums of money into getting equipment before I've even tried to push a graver. Toward the end of Meeks book he mentioned getting a single graver, getting it sharp and trying it out. I've also seen that Brownells has a kit reccomended by Meeks http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=615&title=JAMES+MEEK'S+BEGINNER'S+KIT as well as another kit from Hartliep http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/st...2&title=HARTLIEP+ENGRAVING+SCHOOL+STARTER+SET.
Neither includes anything for shaping or sharpening. I've looked at the Powerhone, but I don't think it's really in my price range. I've also looked at the set up the Meeks has in the book, and I don't have access to the kind of workshop that would facilitate fabricating that kind of set up.

SO... what I'm thinking, at a minimum, I'll need 1 or more gravers, easy, since they are not too costly. Something to hold the work (ball vise is out of the question, for starters) like a sturdy shop vise that rotates, whether it be a swivel vise from Home Depot, or something from Rio Grande (wife is a jeweler). Sharpening stones, and a tool fixture for holding the angles.

Anything I've missed, or anything that really isn't necessary?

Thanks a million.

 

[DKanger]

I'm more or less in the same boat, however, I don't have access or resources for a class. I've read Meeks, and I'm working though one of the books cited there, "The Jewelry Engravers Manual". I'm reluctant to invest large sums of money into getting equipment before I've even tried to push a graver. Toward the end of Meeks book he mentioned getting a single graver, getting it sharp and trying it out. I've also seen that Brownells has a kit reccomended by Meeks .

I guess that makes 3 men in a boat. I bought a basic set umpteen years ago. Didn't know they were push gravers and I was using them with a hammer. Meeks explained how to regrind them to use with a hammer. Still didn't answer a lot of my questions though. More recently, I found a copy of "The Basics of Firearms Engraving" by Neil Hartliep. They use this manual in the NRA Gunsmithing Schools Program as a text. It covers EVERYTHING a beginner needs to know in a step-by-step program.

I also found that Enco sells tool bit blanks in various sizes for as little as 73 cents for hi-speed steel and a bit more for carbide. I ordered a bunch of them along with a piece of 3/8 aluminum rod and made my own holder. Now I can grind my own tips and have them interchangeable.

Dave