Question: dots for transfering images?

[patek philippe]

I am wondering if any of you know why someone would use dots for transfer of an image instead of the normal laser printer or printer transfer method?
The only reason I ask is I stumbled upon a master engraver on instagram that uses dots/bulino style to transfer the image of his design and he is clearly an incredible engraver, but I wanted to know from some of you why he would do that over using a laser printer like most I see do it?
I appreciate any info on this as I have never seen anyone dotting the image on before engraving.

 

[Wiseman501]

I don't have a good answer beyond speculation, but you may consider just asking him directly? We all develop little tricks and approaches that work well for us but may not for others. This is why I always believe in learning from more than one person; It gives one a chance to see which techniques work best for them.

 

[patek philippe]

He is Russian so I doubt he would respond, but I was only asking because I was unsure if it was some technique that I have just not seen.

 

[John B.]

patek philippe wrote I am wondering if any of you know why someone would use dots for transfer of an image instead of the normal laser printer or printer transfer method?

Dots are a good tool for initial, easily modified and improved presentation.
I often use a light dot system for the initial layout of the backbone of scrolls or the outline of animals.
Light dots allow me to visualize the correct shape and placement.
Corrections can be made as needed without much or any erasure.
And without being fixated on an incorrect "hard" outline.
Dots allow for that all important second look. YRMV.

 

[jerrywh]

I once used the same method. It was because I never knew how the other way yet. If he was trained the old school way he may not know how to do it ant other way. He may now have a printer or a computor.

 

[patek philippe]

patek philippe wrote I am wondering if any of you know why someone would use dots for transfer of an image instead of the normal laser printer or printer transfer method?

Dots are a good tool for initial, easily modified and improved presentation.
I often use a light dot system for the initial layout of the backbone of scrolls or the outline of animals.
Light dots allow me to visualize the correct shape and placement.
Corrections can be made as needed without much or any erasure.
And without being fixated on an incorrect "hard" outline.
Dots allow for that all important second look. YRMV.

How did you leave dots without leaving marks? Did you just do a bulino style of very small dots with the design on the metal?

 

[patek philippe]

That is one of his engravings with the dots on vs semi finished.

 

[John B.]

What beautiful and masterful engraving.
In your picture the dots appear to be quite bold and permanent.
As if they were done by the "Prick Through Method."
That is where a paper image is taped or held to the surface and a sharp point is pushed through the outline in a close sequence.
I have used this method a lot on scrimshaw but with very fine dots from a fine needle
I can't speak for this engraver and your photo may be misleading.
But whatever it is, he/she uses they sure makes it work for wonderful results.
For most dot layouts I just use a wax/powder, smoked or Magic Marker covered background. And apply the dots with a 6H drafting pencil or a radius tipped scribe.
Easy to see, refine and correct. As said before, YRMV.

 

[patek philippe]

he has pictures of the whole process, but I just find it weird using dots for outlines of an image because you must have to spend a long time doing that to get the dots lined up perfect.
The photo isn't misleading, he has the whole process posted from start to finish and all he does is dots.

 

[mitch]

As John said, "As if they were done by the "Prick Through Method."
That is where a paper image is taped or held to the surface and a sharp point is pushed through the outline in a close sequence. "

this is basically the same process that has been used for centuries in various media, especially fresco paintings, which uses a small bag of charcoal dust to make black dots thru the holes in the pattern onto the fresh plaster. that's how the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel was laid out!

 

[John B.]

patek philippe wrote "he has pictures of the whole process, but I just find it weird using dots for outlines of an image because you must have to spend a long time doing that to get the dots lined up perfect. "

In your photograph the dots look like small mounds.
This will happen if they are formed by a sharp point being driven into the metal.
If the paper pattern or design is held or taped over the metal and sharp point or scribe following the outline is tapped with a hammer, it forms a little mounded dot on the metal below.
The mound is the metal surrounding the hole where was metal was displaced by the point being driven into the surface.

Nothing weird about this type of dot system. With practice it is very efficient and fast.
As Mitch said, a variation probably using using a pouncing wheel was good enough for the Sistine Chapel.

 

[papart1]

this is good stuff right here gents........really opens the eyes to the length of time needed to perform such wonderful pieces. Thanks for sharing all. paps

 

[monk]

i used the paper & dot method for a long time. it's called pouncing. i never really tried to use it for engraving. i used an electric discharge gadget to create the "dots", or tiny holes in a drawn image on paper. the paper was then taped in place, and gone over with a sock filled with powder.

 

[patek philippe]

patek philippe wrote "he has pictures of the whole process, but I just find it weird using dots for outlines of an image because you must have to spend a long time doing that to get the dots lined up perfect. "

In your photograph the dots look like small mounds.
This will happen if they are formed by a sharp point being driven into the metal.
If the paper pattern or design is held or taped over the metal and sharp point or scribe following the outline is tapped with a hammer, it forms a little mounded dot on the metal below.
The mound is the metal surrounding the hole where was metal was displaced by the point being driven into the surface.

Nothing weird about this type of dot system. With practice it is very efficient and fast.
As Mitch said, a variation probably using using a pouncing wheel was good enough for the Sistine Chapel.

I don't mean weird in a bad way because I am still new to engraving and it just seems what I called weird how a great engraver would use that method of image transfer and I had never seen that before this.

 

[opaed]

Case one: secure transfer, preventing chipping of whole lines through engraving process, especially with melted powder (hot laser transfer) or carbon paper.

Case two: bigger layouts for engraving with hammer and chisel, Old-School fast transfer method with chalk, especially when engraving on cylinder's or in series.

Case three: similar to case two, but with punch with several teeth (2-3 for short curves 4-6 for long curves), drawing is placed on workpiece and chased, this method provides permanent transfer and if chased on midline, so better control for even engraved depth. (also Old-School)

embossing give my the depth

 

[Big-Un]

I used this method early in my career, brought over from my custom painting and lettering days where it was easy to lay out one side of a project (flames on a hot rod) and just flip it for the other side to keep symmetry without needing to take the time to painstakingly lay it out by hand. The same concept for custom lettering. I'm sure the old custom painters and sign painters are very familiar with it. A little different in a smaller scale but the same process. Of course, that was before computers and modern printers and art programs.

 

[mitch]

you would really enjoy this movie, Big-Un:

http://www.signpaintersfilm.com/

 

[Big-Un]

Thanks Mitch. I tried watching the trailer tonight but it was taking a long time to load so I'll watch it later. I started working with a sign painter while still in high school (1963-4) and learned a lot from him. Some things never leave you.