English scroll question.

[Gemsetterchris]

Just stumbled upon this pic posted by Marcus back in a 2010 thread of a Charles Lancaster engraving by himself.....

Just wondered how come the scrolls are growing back on themselves (center) since I thought that was to be avoided? :thinking:

 

[Marrinan]

Scroll layout has rules. Now that you know that rule it is okay to break it with purpose. Most English scroll follows this broken scroll rule so I guess the rule for English scroll is different the conventional American scroll and German scroll. Roger will fill in here I am pretty confident and maybe Marcus. There are other rules broken here but they are the rules for English Fine Scroll. Fred

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

There are other rules broken here but they are the rules for English Fine Scroll.

Keep in mind... they drive on the wrong side of the road too!

 

[mitch]

that photo is a little lacking in 'context'. i'm guessing what happened is the scroll pattern goes all the way around a cluster of cabbage roses (lower left corner of pic) and comes together again. probably just one of those situations where hard and fast rules must be bent a bit...

 

[Gemsetterchris]

I understand that Fred & it doesn't help not seeing the whole design.
Then again it appears to be growing from both directions & clashing.

Just trying to understand this abit better.

 

[Gemsetterchris]

that photo is a little lacking in 'context'. i'm guessing what happened is the scroll pattern goes all the way around a cluster of cabbage roses (lower left corner of pic) and comes together again. probably just one of those situations where hard and fast rules must be bent a bit...

That's about it.
I did abit of studying & if you have Marcus' book you can find this happening on some of the photos.
Probably because you can't go from a small scroll area back to bigger ones from the same growth.

Now I've understood this technicality, do I qualify for rule bending?

 

[monk]

little wonder-- they all drink warm beer over there ! goes to command central faster than cold beer.

 

[GTJC460]

It appears as though there were two origination points in this circumstance. If you divide the left and right sides carefully, you will see the scroll direction is consistently growing the way Marcus outlines in his book and DVD.

 

[dlilazteca]

Keep in mind... they drive on the wrong side of the road too!

Hahah to funny, you guys make me laugh

Saludos,

Carlos

 

[Gemsetterchris]

little wonder-- they all drink warm beer over there ! goes to command central faster than cold beer.

Especially if you use a straw.

 

[Thierry Duguet]

Often English scroll use geometrical pattern. On the bottom of a receiver for example it is like if you divide the bottom in two, one half being the mirror of the other, at some point both half are going to meet and where they meet they will have contradictory direction, you would see the same thing if you where to use American scroll. What really matter is the point of origin, it will be either a border or a mother scroll, the point of origin determine the direction of the scroll, if you look a a Purdey engraving you will see that it is the only rule which is follow.
Actually I do not think that this rule is exclusive to English scroll, the same thing would apply to any scroll pattern, it is more a question of visual flow than "rule", it just look better that way.

 

[Gemsetterchris]

Just my personal preference, but I seem to prefer seeing these "sections" kept seperated into their own little areas rather than creating a full cover..though there are exceptions to that.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Just stumbled upon this pic posted by Marcus back in a 2010 thread of a Charles Lancaster engraving by himself.....

Just wondered how come the scrolls are growing back on themselves (center) since I thought that was to be avoided? :thinking:

It's because it's two different parts of the design Chris. It is where the two sides terminate against one another; they are not growing back on themselves. Nothing in this design grows "back on itself".

 

[Marrinan]

Now that you point that out Marcus I can see that each scroll follows the rules-big one and the little ones. All optical illusion. Fred

 

[Gemsetterchris]

Thanks for clearing that up Marcus
It makes sense now, especially seeing some other similar parts from other photos (of the whole design), despite the fact it kind of contradicts the rules of flow?

 

[celticjohn]

this is how I see it according to Marcus DVD teaching.
Scroll 1a and 1b are growing from scroll 1.
Scroll 2a and 2B are growing from Scroll 2
scroll 2b1, 2b2 & 2b3 are growing from scroll 2b.
Therefore nothing is growing back on itself all are growing in the opposite direction from the scroll they emerge from.

 

[Gemsetterchris]

It is where the two sides terminate against one another; they are not growing back on themselves. .

This is the thing that I was unsure about being a good idea.