Engraved Savage
- Thread starter ECO-DAVE
- Start date
Tim Wells
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
The photo is going to have to be a lot bigger to tell anything about it. Bob Evans is the FEGA historian and knows a bunch about that sort of thing. He may be able to help if a larger detailed photo is available.
Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Dave,
I'm usually pretty good at identifying historic engravers but in this case your pictures, though large enough, are not properly lit for me to offer an opinion. Photographing an engraved gun for detail is difficult at best and a blued gun is even harder. Without getting into creating a light tent and all kinds of other things you may not be willing to do just for this question, I will suggest you take the photos outdoors on a cloudy day. Also put your camera on a tripod to eliminate any movement. If you have an adjustable F stop use the smallest apature such as f22 to capture the most depth of field.
The key to identifying an engraver's work is in the scroll work, not the animal figure. Having said that, it is still difficult to identify the scroll of a formally trained European engraver because, to a large degree they were trained to engrave in a specific way in the 19th and early 20th centuries. From what little I can see of the scroll, it may have been done in Europe or by a European trained engraver. But that is a guess since I can't make much of it.
Also, have you gone over the engraved parts of the gun for a name or initials? Prior to the 1970's it was not common for engravers to sign their work however some of them hid their mark within the scroll or scenery. You sometimes have to look very closely with a magnifying glass to find the engraver's mark if there is one.
Another thing, what is the vintage of the gun? In the early 1900's the head engraver at Savage was Enoch Tue but I don't know if this gun fits into his time period.
Please try again on the pictures and we may be able to solve your mystery.
CRB
I'm usually pretty good at identifying historic engravers but in this case your pictures, though large enough, are not properly lit for me to offer an opinion. Photographing an engraved gun for detail is difficult at best and a blued gun is even harder. Without getting into creating a light tent and all kinds of other things you may not be willing to do just for this question, I will suggest you take the photos outdoors on a cloudy day. Also put your camera on a tripod to eliminate any movement. If you have an adjustable F stop use the smallest apature such as f22 to capture the most depth of field.
The key to identifying an engraver's work is in the scroll work, not the animal figure. Having said that, it is still difficult to identify the scroll of a formally trained European engraver because, to a large degree they were trained to engrave in a specific way in the 19th and early 20th centuries. From what little I can see of the scroll, it may have been done in Europe or by a European trained engraver. But that is a guess since I can't make much of it.
Also, have you gone over the engraved parts of the gun for a name or initials? Prior to the 1970's it was not common for engravers to sign their work however some of them hid their mark within the scroll or scenery. You sometimes have to look very closely with a magnifying glass to find the engraver's mark if there is one.
Another thing, what is the vintage of the gun? In the early 1900's the head engraver at Savage was Enoch Tue but I don't know if this gun fits into his time period.
Please try again on the pictures and we may be able to solve your mystery.
CRB
Last edited:
Thanks Roger,
I will take the pictures tomorrow ...Also the rifle was made in 1913. I don't have any other history for the rifle. The rifle appears to be a complete custom rifle...The wood is very nicely done. I hope we can find out who built it. I am new to engraved Firearms and just fell in love with this rifle. Would it be strange for a European engraver to do a early American rifle? Or was that common for the time? I really appreciate all your help.
Thank You
Dave
I will take the pictures tomorrow ...Also the rifle was made in 1913. I don't have any other history for the rifle. The rifle appears to be a complete custom rifle...The wood is very nicely done. I hope we can find out who built it. I am new to engraved Firearms and just fell in love with this rifle. Would it be strange for a European engraver to do a early American rifle? Or was that common for the time? I really appreciate all your help.
Thank You
Dave
Well, I'm not an expert, but the whole thing screams post WWII Japan to me. The Savage 99 is not a "high-end" firearm, and was popular mainly through the 1950's. It was also popular for GI's stationed in Japan to have their firearms engraved due to the extremely low cost of the work and the availablity of engravers at that time.
Some of the most ornately engraved firearms I've seen have been mid-level guns worked in Japan. GI's could buy through their service clubs and then have them customized while on tour.
Some of the most ornately engraved firearms I've seen have been mid-level guns worked in Japan. GI's could buy through their service clubs and then have them customized while on tour.
Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Eisman is correct about GI's having personal guns engraved in Japan. This is also true for Germany. Usually these guns were bought through the PX or the base rod and gun club then engraved locally. Given the vintage of your gun, this is obviously not the case since the gun is pre-WWI. Japaneese engravers have a distinct style partly due to the way the hold their chisel in the "Asian" method rather than the "side hand" or "European" method. The little I can see, distinctly, does not look like Asian cutting but again I don't have much to go on.
"Is the engraving quality work?" The assesmant will have to await better photos IMO.
CRB
"Is the engraving quality work?" The assesmant will have to await better photos IMO.
CRB
fegarex
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
The photos aren't the greatest like everyone said but I would take a wild guess and say it was German or Belgium engraving. Just because the gun was a pre-war doesn't mean it wasn't in a family for years before engraving. I've seen lots of this thing come in my shop over the years. Chances of finding the engraver may be real slim. Most of them were done on the side and no one bothered to sign them.
Rex
Rex
Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Much better! I feel pretty certain that the gun was engraved by a German or Austrian trained engraver. The tree stumps are common in their scenes. Also the way the deer is shaded and the scroll which is called Altdeutscher Laubgravur or Laubornament is very Germanic. I feel sure that the gun was not engraved by a Japaneese engraver as it bears none of the characteristic traits.
Keep in mind that many American gun engravers of the 19th and early 20th century centuries were German or Austrian immigrants so the gun was not necessarily engraved in Germany or Austria.
When I get more time I will compare some of the specifics of the scroll with photos of known engraver's work. I might be able to tell you more then.
Also did you go over it with a glass to look for initials or hallmark?
CRB
Keep in mind that many American gun engravers of the 19th and early 20th century centuries were German or Austrian immigrants so the gun was not necessarily engraved in Germany or Austria.
When I get more time I will compare some of the specifics of the scroll with photos of known engraver's work. I might be able to tell you more then.
Also did you go over it with a glass to look for initials or hallmark?
CRB
Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Take a look at the thread entitled History/Tool Question. There is a picture of an engraved Savage 99 attached. It shows engraving typical of Enoch Tue's engraving. You will see that it is entirely different than the engraving on your 99.
Please take a close up picture of the initials AHG. I can probabky tell you if it is the owner's initials or something else by the way it was applied.
CRB
Please take a close up picture of the initials AHG. I can probabky tell you if it is the owner's initials or something else by the way it was applied.
CRB
Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Dave,
The AHG would be the initials of the person who comissioned the engraving. Probably the original owner. When initials are bold or inlayed (such as on your gun) they are the owner's. Engravers, even today, engravers initial or sign in a relativly subtle way. On elaborate jobs where a full signature is warranted the engraver usually suffixes "Eng." or "Engr." Italian engravers suffix "Inc." which is an abreveation for incisioni.
CRB
The AHG would be the initials of the person who comissioned the engraving. Probably the original owner. When initials are bold or inlayed (such as on your gun) they are the owner's. Engravers, even today, engravers initial or sign in a relativly subtle way. On elaborate jobs where a full signature is warranted the engraver usually suffixes "Eng." or "Engr." Italian engravers suffix "Inc." which is an abreveation for incisioni.
CRB
Last edited:
Sponsors
